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Discussion in 'Baseball Forum' started by Cappy, Mar 15, 2021.
At what point is defending them doing more harm than good?
Can cashman really do nothing this deadline? That's worse than buying.
I think they traded Bader.
Somehow it seems I gave them too much credit.
The Yankees are the 2nd worst managed team in NY behind the Nets currently. Never thought I'd see the Jets in better hands.
I'm glad they didn't. He's one of the only clutch players on the team that actually plays with some energy. They need to resign him, hopefully they do or it's just another bad nice by Cashman in a book of them at this point.
It seems like he's always hurt though.
Yea that's the unfortunate part of him. I still would give him a 2-3 year contract.
Edit. I don't care about his numbers, Torres is a trash player who will never win. The base running, the insane amount of times he rolls over a ball to the short stop, the double plays... Bad baseball player.
Torres is much better than Bader. If you pay attention to the notable plays, then you'll see Bader make diving catches while Torres botches a grounder. But Torres gets on base more than Bader and has significantly more power. Bader's superior baserunning doesn't make up for that. And Torres's defense at second isn't even bad; he's got good range and makes plays, just is prone to end up on blooper reels. Also, Bader spends half his time on the IL. And Torres isn't the reason the Yankees aren't winning; World Series winners have much worse players than him. Take out your frustration on the people who got us into this mess like Trashman and Hal the small-dicked trust fund baby. Fuck both of them.
I'd take Bader 10 times out of ten over Torres. He plays a premium position and is way more clutch in the sample size I have seen. I didn't watch his every move in St Louis, but that was the report on him there as well. Torres is a slick second baseman, I wouldn't say great either.
Bader was a .330 OBP guy on the Cardinals, but he's had an issue with OBP here.. that send to be a theme.
Torres is not a winning baseball player and cult leader of the Cashman guys. Bader is not a middle of the lineup hitter, but he is clutch and plays a premium position very well. It's just the injury problem with Bader.
I think I will get my way. I see Torres gone for nothing next year and I can see Bader coming back on a relatively affordable multi year deal.
What do you mean by "winning baseball player"? You can't mean career win-loss record because Torres's teams have won more than Bader's.* And Torres's career numbers are better even if you take defense and positional value into account. 13.1 WAR over six seasons for Torres vs. 12.7 WAR over seven seasons for Bader. Bader has more WAR per game played (0.0214 for Bader vs. 0.0192 for Torres), but Bader should be penalized and Torres rewarded for their respective durabilities. Admittedly, Bader has been the better postseason player, but it's a small sample size and entirely due to his hot streak last year; he was awful in the postseason for the Cardinals.
Also, I can see you getting your way, but given the people running this team, that doesn't mean you're right.
*Of course that isn't Bader's fault, but this is why the idea of a "winning baseball player" is pretty nebulous.
It's definitely an opinion, but just watching Torres over the years and watching baseball for thirty plus years I find him to be a losing player.
No defensive flexibility.
Constant blips in focus leading to defensive and base running blunders.
Occasional lack of effort.
Poor at RISP. I'll admit my memory for this only goes back a few years of me noticing he's not good at it.
If he didn't lose focus, he still would be a bad base runner who misjudges a handful or two of plays a year.
There was no reason to not love Torres. We traded a reliever for him, then got that reliever back the next year and he was an all star 2B with 38 home runs. The opinion of him being a losing player is from watching probably 80 percent of his games over 5.5 years. I do get he is a polarizing player for what he does do reasonably well... But in today's MLB he's really not this elite power hitting second baseman people claim him to be. He's still riding 38 home runs in some people's mind (not saying you).
Despite Bader being injured a lot, I'd take him every chance I get over Torres.
I'm aware of the lack of defensive flexibility, focus, effort, and baserunning issues. But him being poor at RISP is false: his career OPS with RISP is .824, which is higher than his overall career OPS of .778. Even this season his OPS with RISP is .799, which is higher than his overall 2023 OPS of .741. I get that Torres isn't as good as people were originally hoping, but that doesn't change the fact that he's still a good player. And I like guys who stay on the field, especially when they're 2.5 years younger than the guy with injury problems. Bader is 29 years old; if he can't get through his 20s healthy, what's going to happen to him in his 30s?
I don't think you should lump RISP stats into OPS. BA is a much bigger factor when talking about RISP, while a walk is not necessarily bad and passes the baton it's more important to get an actual hit. And to me that's what makes you a clutch hitter, getting hits and not walking.
Here's a further breakdown per years. In the order of BA OBP SLUG:
2023 - 0.271 0.352 0.457
2022 - 0.236 0.294 0.396 (yikes)
2021 - 0.277 0.357 0.319
2020 - 0.250 0.375 0.325
2019 - 0.344 0.379 0.641
That's far from impressive and I definitely can't agree that Torres is even an average hitter with RISP. The numbers you share show he is barely above average in OPS (.750 is average), with 2019 really giving his numbers a boost. But it hides the fact he does not get hits in this scenario at an acceptable rate.
Continuing with the kind of Torres-Bader debate. Injuries included I still take him because he will not break the bank and can probably lock him up for a few seasons. Bader should be a Cashman guy. He's the first outfielder he's traded or signed that didn't fail miserably since Nick Swisher.
The league averages with RISP are:
2023 - .256 .336 .416
2022 - .253 .332 .409
2021 - .252 .337 .417
2020 - .256 .345 .429
2019 - .262 .345 .443
So even in terms of batting average, Torres is fine with RISP. Above average in 3 of the 5 years, and one of the below-average years was the Covid year. Actually above average in 4 of the 6 years because you omitted 2018 for some reason:
2018 Torres - .278 .356 .472
2018 MLB - .254 .339 .414
Still not exceptional, but there isn't something wrong with him in clutch situations. And do you really trust that Bader is going to be even as healthy/effective as he is now when he's in his early 30s? People's bodies are more likely to break down with age, not less.
Also, just for fun, here are Bader's numbers with RISP:
2023 - .255 .263 .490
2022 (Cardinals) - .250 .306 .393
2022 (Yankees) - .538 .500 .692
2021 - .295 .390 .523
2020 - .182 .387 .318
2019 - .213 .419 .293
2018 - .211 .333 .316
2017 - .267 .368 .467
He was amazing on the 2022 Yankees in a very small sample of 14 PAs, but don't let that make you think he's Mr. Clutch. He's had some years where he's been awful with RISP.
Also to post on something other than Bader vs. Torres, this trade deadline is the last straw with me for Cashman. This is a man who's gotten so complacent over the years that he doesn't even care anymore about the team he's supposed to be running. Fire his ass.
I was using CBS to get split stats and it only went to 2019.
To the first point, we will have to agree to disagree that league average .256 equates to "fine." Average and fine are not one and the same and definitely not a clutch hitter in RISP which was my first point regarding Torres. There's a lot more crappy players bringing that MLB average down than players I consider average (.270ish) above average (290ish) and elite (310ish) raising it. He's going to get paid by someone to be a middle of the order bat. He's not worth it.
To the second point, yes I still give Bader a multi year deal at the range on 10-15 mil a year. It's not breaking the bank, and he's an elite center fielder that has greatly improved his clutch hitting since being in the league. I'm not that concerned he was a bad hitter 5 years ago.
It's also pretty apparent from the numbers Bader has been more clutch with RISP 2 out of the last 3 years, and can be debated he is better this year too with the extra slug making it every year since 2021.
I will point out that during the early portion of this debate, Torres got a hit with RISP and raised his BA by 7-9 points to .278. I will concede that maybe I'm being a little hard on him this year in terms of RISP, but I still have the same option regardless (losing player/rather have Bader). Also want to point out that both opinions aren't really bound to each other.
Sorry to dominate the thread, I thought this was a pretty good debate about two impact players on the Yankees.
I like Bader, but I think his hustle and swagger allows him to be overrated. Brandon Nimmo is actually a better hitter than he is. Think about that.
Let's just agree to disagree on this. It's a good discussion, but I also don't want to hijack the thread either on debating these guys.
In more important news, the Yankees put Rizzo on the IL with post-concussion syndrome dating back to the collision with Tatis. That's completely unacceptable, especially in today's day and age. I'm furious at the people running the Yankees, like Jets with Gase level furious.
With the mind F this year has been, Cole is probably going to win the Cy Young.
That and the batting title are my two favorite individual accolades in sports.