First off Bart, the statement is not dumb, with all due respect you do not know the rules. Contact is not required to happen only after a player has completed the elements of possession, but may happen earlier to be credited for contact. A much less frequent example is a lineman picking up a QB fumble, if the QB's hand is touching the lineman's calf while both are down and then lineman grabs the ball and gets up, gets his leg away from the QB, then takes a step as a runner, he does not have possession of that loose ball till he became a runner, which was after he disengaged from the QB. But he is still down by contact via that earlier contact. Another example you may have seen is a DB picking off a ball and the WR touching him but fall away but before the DB has gained possession of the ball, falls to the ground, gets up and tries to advance the ball, the DB is down by contact bia that earlier contact. To your capitalized point. Yes you do need to survive the ground when picking up a loose ball while one is going to the ground. please see NFL rule 3, Art. 7, Item 2, and specifically note (1). If Jack rolled out of bounds prior to completing possession, the ball would revert back to the team who last had possession, which in this case would be the Pats. There is player possession and team possession. Lewis lost player possession the moment it was dislodged, but the pats had team possession. You may have seen this many times where there is a fumble ball heads towards the sidelines and the other team can get it in time before he or ball goes out of bounds. As an interesting side note had Jack recovered it, was not down, then ran down the side lines, got stripped and ball went out of bound it would go back to Jags at Jack's last point of possession as the Jags then would be in team possession by virtual of Jack getting possession. Regarding your second paragraph i agree, the initial strip is not enough and the control starts when it is pinnned to stomach, but at the time thier hands were engaged, at the points in the videos i referenced
I understand your points about things outside of Deflategate and Spygate. You may very well be correct and do not disagree and understand if folks are doing more gamemanship than others that is a concern as they are doing more than simply the norm or above some base line. I guess it might just come down what exactly is happening and done by the team. I do know that the headset things happens in a lot of stadiums. Also, the pats were victims of a fire alarm prank, i think it was SB 39 or it might of been 38, i forgot. I wonder how much to is not report on other teams. As to the tapes, I am not worried about them being destroyed as Goodell made a determination they were of defensive signals, so i really do not see why one needs to see the tapes. I kind of always viewed it as a guy gets convicted of possession of cocaine (in which they only use a certificate from a lab that tested the cocaine) and then the cocaine is destroyed and folks want to complain about the cocaine being destroyed, well it does not matter as there has been a determination its cocaine we do not need to actually look at it. For me the signals is not much of an issue, i am much more bothered had they indeed taped walk throughts or did indeed bug locker rooms. As for the stickem, yes today's gloves are worse that stickem, i guess the point about Rice is that relative to his day where the gloves were not as good or folks still played without gloves, then Rice's stickem use would of given him a edge over is contemporaries.
WTF? Am I the only one that feels like slamming my head against the wall after reading this? Please see rule blah blah blah. Did you just make that shit up? If you know the exact spot in the rule book, why didn’t you paste it here? You don’t have to survive the ground when recovering a fumble, numnutz. That is a term for a forward pass. There is no such thing as surviving the ground on a fumble. You keep using a catch to try to make your point. Catching a pass is completely different than recovering a fumble. Do yourself a favor and google Lewis/Jack fumble. There are a dozen articles from major sports outlets. All of them say, it was a bad call. Seriously. Your argument that he was down by contact because he was touching Lewis PRIOR to gaining possession glaringly shows you don’t know football rules. I’m done arguing this with you. Enjoy your Pats in the Super Bowl.
Kurt, to your first point to what the Pats have actually been caught doing, or determined doing via circumstantial evidence, all that we really have is taping and messing with football after inspection to gain an advantage. As to the football, it may really only help Brady, even if only a sugar pill. The messing with kicker balls will along the same line help the kicker, again even if only a sugar pill. True a QB will handle the ball on offense, but a kicker's contribution can also be very important to a win, like many say about Adam V. early in his Pats career, also look at our present kicker missing two extra points in the '15 AFCCG and SB 51 causing us to go for 2 points in both games failing the first but not the second. And all the other kicker made or miss FGs I think you are underselling crowd noise , they cause fasle starts, the offense going silent count, etc. So noise has an impact. Just a point of fact the Pats came clean on Spygate and did not hide anything.and BB did apologize. So the Pats acted the EXACTLY same way as the Falcons, but yet they are treated differently. The only other thin is Deflate gate and they did work with the NFL, but at the same time realize it was a lot of bs for really nothing ad frankly acted accordingly later in the investigation. oo And again we only have two proven cases and a bunch of acusations, which who knows may be true. And i do agree with you and your fans points about the frustration regarding the pats and some of their fans whom can be arrogant and pains in the neck. And also to some degree if one is good you should not have to cheat. So i can understand your frustration and many fans can make it tough to get into these subjects.
Here is the rule. ARTICLE 7. PLAYER POSSESSION. Item 1. Player in Possession. A player is in possession when he is inbounds and has a firm grip and control of the ball with his hands or arms. Item 2. Possession of Loose Ball. To gain possession of a loose ball that has been caught, intercepted, or recovered, a player must have complete control of the ball and have both feet or any other part of his body, other than his hands, completely on the ground inbounds, and then maintain control of the ball long enough to become a runner. A player has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any other part of his body to the ground, there is no possession. This rule applies in the field of play and in the end zone. Item 3. Simultaneous Possession of a Loose Ball. If a Loose Ball is controlled simultaneously by two opponents, and both players retain it, it is simultaneous possession, and the ball belongs to the team last in possession, or to the receiving team when there has been a Free Kick, Scrimmage Kick, or Fair Catch Kick. It is not simultaneous possession if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. The terms catch, intercept, recover, advance, and fumble denote player possession (as distinguished from touching or muffing). Notes: (1) A player who goes to the ground in the process of attempting to secure possession of a loose ball (with or without contact by an opponent) must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, there is no possession. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, it is a catch, interception, or recovery. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. (2) If a player goes to the ground out of bounds (with or without contact by an opponent) in the process of attempting to secure possession of a loose ball at the sideline, he must maintain complete and continuous control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, or there is no possession. (3) If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. Here is a link to the rule book. You will find the above on page 4 https://operations.nfl.com/media/2646/2017-playing-rules.pdf
You are right about much of it being circumstantial evidence.And I also agree with you about the crime portion of deflate gate.Ball manipulation is a common practice throughout the league despite being illegal. The way the team acted after the fact is really what created the monster.The Patriots fought for due process & got their wish. During that time Brady destroyed federal discovery.However silly that might sound given the crime consider it was the team that initially decided a full defense. During this time Kraft said the 02-07 behavior helped them win 1%; acknowledging it helping win ANY percentage should outrage anyone outside New England..think that 1% didn’t make a difference in all the close Super Bowls?And suppose he’s exaggerating on that number? Patriots did come clean about spygate but not till league meetings when B.B. finally apologized to NFL & team hierarchy.But make no mistake that was clearly an act of defiance & disrespect toward the jets.The additional tapes that were destroyed only furthers the sentiment. The things we do know that the patriots have done make the circumstantial aspects seem more believeable..and where there is smoke there’s fire..there’s been enough of this wiretapping stuff that it’s pretty tangible at this stage.when exactly have the patriots earned the benefit of the doubt??
Here is the rule for a reception for a forward pass, is Rule 8 and found on page 31 of the rule book. As you can see the elements are the exact same as gaining possession of a loose ball. You will also see most critically that the rule book with referring going to ground references contact sequentially and prior to the act of going to the ground. Which is simply my point. ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds: (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) maintains control of the ball after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, until he has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner. A player has the ball long enough to become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps (see 3-2-7-Item 2). Note: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch. Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.
I hear yah Kurt and mostly agree with you and have some random additional thoughts. I kind of view the crime and the punishment separately. Even though it was not a big deal, Brady still was found based on the evidence to have messed with balls, which is simply not right, period, regardless of how one tries to fluff it off. Whether it did or did not have an effect, it is bad optics at a minimum, and more importantly against the rules. My only points on the Pats is perhaps they may have felt they came clean on Spygate and got, in their option, slammed. Yes BB did not formally apologize to the league till the meeting, but the Pats can clean initially and BB apologed to the team and fans but not the league till later. Then with Deflategate, although it was wrong, I think the Pats felt they were being pursecuted. With the early false leaks that were not corrected, a nationwide issue for something that a few months ago no one cared about, and i think, right or wrong it came to a breaking point and they kind of said screw you. True they did deny access to their ball boys, but it was like a 5th request, and Brady played handy panky with his phone, so agree 100% there. Right or wrong I think the Pats had it and decided to put up a wall and come get us attitude. Getting back to Spygate, i do believe BB was not using it for in game use but was creating a dossier on coaches for future reference which may not technically be in violation of the rule. However, there was a memo sent out 12 months prior in Sept 2006 tell folks cut it out. And if BB had any questions the onus was really on him to stop to check with the NFL. BB was wrong for not only taping but just as critical not checking with the NFL after knowing the teams were on special notice. I was really not against the penalty. As to the other things lingering in the weeds, for the most part i find really bad if the pats were doing them. Wiring locker rooms and taping walk throughs are self evident. And if they have some kind of hacking of the NFL wireless system this too is equally evil. So agree whole hearterly here Kurt. The only open question might be if any of the tapes, i read only a handful, that existed and were destroyed had any walk throughs on them, which would be a serious gamemanship violation in my book.
Fair enough we can agree to disagree and thanks for your time. I have read a few of the articles and most do not really know the rule imo. I did add the rules in a few prior posts so that you did not think i was blowing smoke and also to demonstrate that the NFL does not make a special distinction between a recovery of a loose ball and completed catch, they are viewed the same, and as such, the down by contact will be the same for both, regardless of whose method we use. And again Bart, thanks again kindly for taking your time to read my posts and respond.
Look Patriot fans like many other football fans are ignorant. They have been brainwashed by the media who don't have time or are to lazy to give you the entire story. Just as Bill/Tom is given as the reason, cheating is another dumb theory given. As to Peyton Manning and Belichick's staff, note staff here, common sense would tell you they would be successful. How successful as compared to Brady is impossible to predict. It would be difficult for any quarterback or Manning to be as successful as Brady has been. Even if Brady himself were to start all over it would be difficult. He has had a lot of luck go his way like dropped interceptions and the tuck call as examples. Speaking of unsung heroes, the Patriots receivers rarely ever miss a ball in such a way that leads to interceptions. They tend to be the most sure handed receivers in the league, another phenomena that has kept Brady's interception count low.
Its my understanding he hooked up with the young actress a year after his wife's death in 2011. His wife died of ovarian cancer which may explain his sexual exploits after her death, who knows. But in either case it is my understanding he was quite depressed after her loss. People deal with loss many ways and if he found happiness going after a young women who are we to judge? As to his youngest son, the suit involves the family estate trust being moved into another trust. The son who has not got along with him is concerned his access to this trust will be limited by this move and thus explains the suit. Myra his ex wife had a lot of money so I don't think he can exclude his son from her portion of the estate. Assuming he is worth 3.2 billion, the son's 1/4 portion (1 of 4 children) would be 800 million. If he were to exclude his youngest son from his portion of the estate, which he does have that right, I do think that would be a scum bag move. But time will tell and its amazing how money can ruin families especially in estate matters. hopefully for their sake, him and his son can reconcile before he dies. Like I said he isn't perfect, but overall he is a good man. As to his charity side, he and his wife have been doing this way before the Pats were winning super Bowls.
I think you got your facts wrong here! I looked it up to be sure. The Patriots fumbled and lost the ball 4 times in the regular season in 2017. They were tied for 2nd with the Chiefs being 1st with three lost fumbles. When you look at total giveaways in 2017 the Pats were 2nd with 8 interceptions and 4 fumbles = 12 giveaways The Chiefs were 1st again in 2017 with 8 interceptions and 3 fumbles = 11 giveaways So try another bullshit excuse why they don't lose the ball. Maybe they are deflating and inflating the ball between plays? Are the Chiefs cheaters also? Maybe you should listen to the real Bart Scott who pointed out that just about everyone is cheating in the NFL in terms of stealing signs and plays. This has been part of the game for many years and to say the Patriots are the only ones that do it is very pathetic. The Patriots and the Chiefs have good coaches that preach ball security. Something I wish the Jets staff would stress more! This is the reality!
Sure like he and the rest of the Patriots, I didn't do my homework brain trust, knew this? I bet they now know gang tattoos now.
Not every fumble gets recovered by the defense. Look it up. The Pats put the ball on the ground in 2016 and ‘17 more times than two thirds of the teams. It’s a fact. They fumbled 12 times through the first four games in 2016. (More than all of 2015) since then they have dropped to around the league average, but there is a learning curve. They had to get used to the balls the rest of the teams were playing with. Like I said before Steve Spagnolo brought up Super Bowl 39 yesterday, saying the Pats were stealing signs in that Super Bowl. But I’m sure you’ll come back with some bullshit excuse that every team cheats. The Pats are just persecuted for being so good. This guy Is a little over the top, and some of his stuff is wrong, but just watch. Start at around the 7 minute mark. Where there is smoke there’s fire. But again, I’m sure it’s all just haters making shit up right?
We don't know they didn't tape walk through. I haven't watched the tapes and neither have you. All we have is the word of the Pats, whom you obviously will trust where as i clearly am not going to give the benefit of the doubt and the word of the league office who i am sure neither of us trust at all. Hence i believe things would be very different had they allowed a few neutral media members to watch them to clear this up. As for the headsets, fire alarms etc. I hear about this shit all over the place in the league on a weekly basis. if there is a gentleman's agreement among the teams that you get 2 a game and the Pats are routinely going for 5 or 6 (again numbers are made up for example) then why wouldn't the other teams reach a breaking point and do something about it? It's also the smugness of the organization. As i mentioned in a post somewhere Kraft and the media hold up this team as do no wrong choir boys even when shrouded in controversy. The way he stated they would fully comply with the deflategate investigation then turned around a day later and basically said fuck you apologize to the league was not a good look. made worse when you realize most fan bases have had a bad taste in their mouth about the friendship between Kraft and the commish throughout this entire thing. Yes people make friends with their work peers but Goodell has never done a good job of appearing neutral. This doesn't help the impression that the team got away with some shit. I will say you and PATRIOT are great. You come on here, take your blows and have actual discussions. I don't always agree with what you two say but i applaud that you can provide your side of things, do so in a knowledgeable manor and keep it relatively civil. It's extremely easy to dislike your fan base but i raise a glass to you two for keeping it real. Cheers.
Thanks for your kind words and I enjoy your posts also. In the end Toronto, all we have is ourselves in front of a mirror. If we can not be honest with ourselves and state what is without any major bias, then why bother posting. Surely, one can advocate the facts in a logical manner, but it does really no good in my book to try to color the facts to make one's point easier. What is, is . . . From what i remember there were only a handful of tapes and likely the Pats, just destroyed/taped over, the tapes once they got what they needed, they had a dossier of stick figures they must of used for future reference. My guess is that those tapes were just from the 2007 season and preseason, so they could of been a walk through on those tapes, idk. Surely, it can be frustrating when folks/fans feel like another team is getting breaks/pushing the envelope more than others and perhaps too when one is good, there may be a why do you need to push the envelope when you are that good. And from the other side of the fence, it can be frustrating when something that seems to be not a major issue becomes one and gets dragged on for a long time. And I think i will join in that glass . . Cheers
