Pat Mahomes

Discussion in 'Draft' started by JethroTull, Jan 4, 2017.

  1. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,409
    Likes Received:
    6,653
    Winston was the best college QB prospect I've seen in years. Because yes, he played the game like an NFL Quarterback. Macc should've sold the farm to move up from 6 to 1 to get that guy
     
  2. Rextasy

    Rextasy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2004
    Messages:
    9,553
    Likes Received:
    592
    Kizer certainly looks the part but I don't know how anyone can look at his college tape and see huge amounts te of upside at the next level. He is basically this years version of Hackenberg, big strong arm and less than stellar college career.

    I find this QB class to be very interesting as I could see any of the big 5 becoming the best QB from this class. I personally think Mahomes has the highest upside and it's not close but he also might have the lowest floor. Definitely would be a risky pick but as a fan I feel like there is nothing to lose. I could certainly see why Mac would think otherwise.
     
  3. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    15,317
    Likes Received:
    4,590
    I definitely would have, I don't like trading up but Winston is a true leader. He generally loves all of his teammates and would do anything for em and they love the guy right back.

    Physically, Kizer has bigger hands [9 Inches for Hack; 9 7/8 for Kizer]. He wasn't also ruined by his college coaches making him change his stance and footwork his 2nd year in college to fit the offense Penn State was running. Kizer just misses throws, always under pressure and had to play like a star just to keep them in games.

    Kizer in terms of situation essentially went through the same issues as Jay Cutler at Vandy. No team around him and over-reliance by the coaching staff. Some liken him to Phillip Rivers.
     
    alleycat9 likes this.
  4. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,332
    Likes Received:
    976

    The evaluation I posted, which you dismissed, points out how Mahomes actually DOES do these things. But if you're bound and determined to dismiss him, nothing will sway you I guess. But "mechanics" aren't everything. There are numerous examples in all sports of HOF'ers with "terrible" mechanics. And trying to "fix" them often makes them do worse. "Mechanics" and statistics are simply evaluators' attempts to try and make a science out of what is really more subjective. To quote Mark Twain: "THere are three kinds of lies: Lies; damned lies, and statistics".
     
  5. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,332
    Likes Received:
    976
    Or, you could a take a QB who can move around and have shitty footwork and STILL complete passes.
     
  6. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    15,317
    Likes Received:
    4,590
    If only, that was the point I was trying to make
     
    alleycat9 likes this.
  7. KurtTheJetsFan

    KurtTheJetsFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,457
    Likes Received:
    919
    I think people are mistaking "No mechanics" for "BAD mechanics" w. Mahomes. It's pretty clear from all his tape that he was never asked to learn or execute disciplined footwork or anything overly mechanical. That could be for a few different reasons...and therein lies the rub within his ultimate evaluation.

    Possibility 1- TTU's scheme simply doesn't ask its QBs to follow any specific guidelines within mechanics

    Possibility 2- They recognized he had special pocket presence early on & decided that trying to contain him would stunt his growth & potentially effect his performance

    Possibility 3- He struggled learning & executing mechanics so they just avoided the notion all together. This is the scenario we'd wanna be cautious about. Afterall...at this stage it's a matter of whether he can learn mechanics & execute them on the fly. If he struggled on the college level w. such...odds are he'll down right drown in the pro's.

    It's not exactly the same situation in terms of where he needs to go development wise...and he's alil of his own flavor..but I liken the transition to that of Roethlisberger. He does everything you want from your QB...but certain things will need to be catered to fit him & technically proficient he may never be. Buyer beware.
     
    NCJetsfan likes this.
  8. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,332
    Likes Received:
    976
    This analysis includes Mahomes, Watson, Kizer, Trubisky, Webb, and doesn't hold back on the criticism of any of them:

    http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/04/12/2017-draft-quarterback-class-best-nfl-teams

    I disagree with their call of Watson being best suited for the Jets because he doesn't have a "gun" for an arm, and playing in the NE and in their stadium, I wonder if he can make the throws. That said, I still like Watson for his intangibles, and Joe Kapp and Billy Kilmer made it to the SB, so arm strength isn't the only thing needed. But this is why I think Mahomes is the better fit, and since they're creating a new offense, they should be able to adapt it to his limitations and strengths.

    Anyway, food for thought.
     
  9. alleycat9

    alleycat9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Messages:
    8,193
    Likes Received:
    940

    "he rarely throws with timing and anticipation"

    out of everything in that article that is the most damning thing about a qb coming into the nfl.

    pre snap read, post snap read get the ball there on time. or die.
     
  10. alleycat9

    alleycat9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Messages:
    8,193
    Likes Received:
    940
    "Players such as Mahomes make the draft difficult. He has the arm to be a big-time NFL QB. His delivery is quick and compact, and he throws with velocity and precision. Athletically, he moves well, especially when he’s in sandlot mode outside the pocket.


    Mahomes’s problem is a glaring lack of refinement. That sandlot mode is his default approach, which is alarming because Texas Tech ran a timing-based spread passing game. Mahomes has keen vision at the deeper levels once a play breaks down. However, he has poor vision when the play isn’t broken down. He rarely throws with timing and anticipation.



    [​IMG]
    Photo: William Purnell/Icon Sportswire via Getty Images
    In the NFL, Mahomes will need to refine his sometimes-sandlot sensibilities.


    Pure sandlot quarterbacking does not translate to the NFL. Projecting how it might amounts to guesswork.

    That’s the first concern with Mahomes. The other is that his arm, which can tantalize, is too often sabotaged by erratic fundamentals. This stems from that sandlot approach. Mahomes will move needlessly in and out of a clean pocket, breaking down a well-constructed play. His accuracy isn’t as consistent as his skills say it should be. This includes deep balls, which he sometimes struggled with (the Oklahoma game) and other times used to dominate (the Baylor game).

    So how do you identify a good NFL fit for an unstructured quarterback who routinely breaks down his own plays? You find a tightly managed, quick-strike passing scheme that won’t let him break down. And, since Mahomes already had that at Texas Tech and still played willy-nilly, you find a coach who will hold him accountable.

    The best fit: the Los Angeles Chargers. First-time head coach Anthony Lynn can speak to players. More importantly, he’d let offensive coordinator and passing game guru Ken Whisenhunt handle Mahomes. Under Whisenhunt, Mahomes would have to play on time and from the pocket. Also, sitting for a few years behind Philip Rivers—who turns 36 in December—would be a great way to expose Mahomes to the most disciplined of professional quarterbacking."
     
    #310 alleycat9, Apr 13, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
    101GangGreen101 likes this.
  11. KurtTheJetsFan

    KurtTheJetsFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,457
    Likes Received:
    919
    So let me get this straight....he "rarely throws with anticipation or timing" but "Played in a system largely predicated on timing"...

    Additionally...you guys are getting on him for inflated stats in a timing based system...and yet somehow claim he doesn't have the necessary skills for the very scheme he played in & managed to put up the 3rd best passing #'s in NCAA history???

    I'm gonna need further explanation...
     
    ColoradoContrails likes this.
  12. Big Cat

    Big Cat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    3,995
    This guy started a twitter thread addressing common Mahomes criticisms. Click on the tweet to follow it to twitter, there's a string of about 20 clips.

     
  13. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    15,317
    Likes Received:
    4,590
    He rarely throws receivers open in that offense. Very rarely do you see it happen. A receiver is open at a certain time by creating mismatches on the field using their speedy receivers [3 vs 2 matchups]. It allows you to make quicker decisions. He can be accurate, but his footwork absolutely holds him back and it creates a velocity issue. The kid will absolutely trip over his own feet if he were to start as a rookie on a play. When he makes throws, sometimes he does a little cute hop step prior to the release. I've only seen like 3 of his games personally, but he does have a great arm, but I absolutely hate the mechanics.

    Stats mean nothing here, we should be looking at the player / system.
     
    alleycat9 likes this.
  14. alleycat9

    alleycat9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Messages:
    8,193
    Likes Received:
    940

    those werent my words, those were the words of the article he linked to. and then said something along the lines of we have a new offense so we can adapt it to his limitations and strengths. i think their point is that even though his system is meant to work this way he is so flawed that he couldnt do that and instead relied on back foot throws after the play had broken down.

    my contention is, he isnt any fucking good and i wouldnt want to waste yet another pick on a guy who we have to adapt our offense to his limitations and strengths. how about we get a guy who can actually play the position the way its supposed to be played. my 10 year old has better fundamentals than this guy does.
     
    BrowningNagle likes this.
  15. KurtTheJetsFan

    KurtTheJetsFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,457
    Likes Received:
    919
    We can agree to disagree.

    If you feel that strongly against the kid...nothing is gonna change your mind.

    Carry on..
     
    ColoradoContrails and alleycat9 like this.
  16. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,409
    Likes Received:
    6,653
    every year this happens... and every year fans get burned on it.

    some QB gets overhyped in mid-April by many of the talking heads. Its probably to drum up interest for the draft more than anything else. Mahomes should be a 3rd round pick at best
     
  17. KurtTheJetsFan

    KurtTheJetsFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,457
    Likes Received:
    919
    The system he was in rarely asked him to throw guys open...and repeatedly in big spots mind you...he DID throw guys open. Additionally...if that's your criteria for drafting a QB...you might be waiting for awhile. You don't see alot of anticipation type throws on the college level...especially now that these air raid/spread systems are in place. Even the pro style guys rarely show that type of ability early on.

    As for the footwork...yes it's bad...but as I stated prior...was he ever asked to have mechanics in their system? I'm gonna venture to say he wasn't. Who's to say he can't learn adequate mechanics in short order? He attended afew Manning passing camps....and was also a high end pitching prospect who could've been selected in the 1st 3 rounds of the MLB draft...learning & executing new mechanical concepts likely isn't foreign to him.

    This is what a private workout is for...he certainly has the physical tools & maturity to LEARN proper mechanics.

    Everybody keeps talking about his great arm...as someone who has conviction for him...honestly...the arm strength doesn't even come up in conversation for me until about 3-4 aspects down the line. It's his command of the offense, pocket presence & his big play ability when things breakdown that really have me sold. The big arm aspect is just the cherry on top.
     
    ColoradoContrails likes this.
  18. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,409
    Likes Received:
    6,653
    Nobody can learn adequate mechanics in short order kurt. Mahomes doesn't walk on water
     
  19. KurtTheJetsFan

    KurtTheJetsFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,457
    Likes Received:
    919
    Good thing he's been working on it all offseason then...
     
  20. alleycat9

    alleycat9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Messages:
    8,193
    Likes Received:
    940
    smh... good mechanics are things kids learn at a young age. they typically at the college age are set in their ways. these are things they need to learn at the jr high level not at the im going to be drafted in 3 months level.

    its tremendously disappointing to see a kid who does have so much arm talent be allowed to have shit mechanics for so so long. his high school coach should be ashamed of himself and his college coach should be even more ashamed.

    as the dline coach from army said in a seminar i went to this past winter, you're either coaching it or you are allowing it.

    and too many guys allow too much bad stuff because a guy has "arm talent"
     
    BrowningNagle likes this.

Share This Page