Yanks vs. Toronto 8/10-8/12

Discussion in 'Baseball Forum' started by Cappy, Aug 10, 2009.

  1. Jake

    Jake Well-Known Member

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    Another walk off win for the NYY. Gaudin pitched well.
     
  2. Don

    Don 2008 TGG Rich Kotite "Least Knowledgeable" Award W

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    Gaudin did pitch good and it's good they ended it when they did. He already had 44 pitches and nobody else was warming up. Another inning and he probably wouldn't be starting Sunday.
     
  3. AlioTheFool

    AlioTheFool Spiveymaniac

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    It's a day game today, so he'll have 3.5 days of rest. I'd assume they're treating today as his throw day.

    And again, we're playing Seattle.
     
  4. Don

    Don 2008 TGG Rich Kotite "Least Knowledgeable" Award W

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    Girardi said in the postgame that his pitch count could have gone to 85 today before they pulled him. I don't know what they would have done for a starter if it did..my guess is Chamberlain would have started which means this whole thing is a sham.
     
  5. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    Of course that's your guess. :rolleyes:
     
  6. MBGreen

    MBGreen Banned

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    good win today, Cappy.

    But we'll be back......someday. *tear rolling down cheek*
     
  7. ace_o_spades

    ace_o_spades New Member

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    The Jays have some decent pieces in place already and as demonstrated in the past they're not afraid to spend (altho judging by how they just gave Rios away that might not be the case anymore)
     
  8. Don

    Don 2008 TGG Rich Kotite "Least Knowledgeable" Award W

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    Not looking too good if Arod, Jeter and Posada all miss some time after yesterday. I was just reading that had Arod not been able to stay in (and it looked like he shouldn't have) then Molina would have had to play third..that's all they had left.
     
  9. Dierking

    Dierking Well-Known Member

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    Cashman would have a lot of explaining to do if the Yankees were down to their third string emergency infielders in the 15th inning.
     
  10. Don

    Don 2008 TGG Rich Kotite "Least Knowledgeable" Award W

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    So, let's see. Is this whole Joba thing just a total sham or what?

    They say there are no rules in the postseason.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2009/08/12/2009-08-12_joba_rules_ii_yankees.html

    So, what if the Yankees go all the way and every series goes its limit? Even if Chamberlain is the number 4 he might get 4 starts and 30 innings. If he is the number 3 he would get 40 innings or more in full series. He is at 120+ innings now and they say he will pitch the rest of the year even if it is ever 8 or 9 days...I don't feel like going through all the effort but it sounds like he could end up with more than 170 innings..maybe a lot more. This after never having pitched more than 100 in his life?

    Total garbage and Cashman must be sweating his job more than ever.
     
  11. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    Every time I think you can't outdo your previous rants, you go and prove me wrong. Bravo, Don. Bravo.

    He threw 115 innings in 2007. They had never released what his limit was, but most people expected it to be around 140-150, not counting the postseason. Looks like it might be a bit higher than that... but not by too much. If they're skipping him or pushing him back when they can, he'll probably make about five more starts. Assuming six innings/start, he'll be at 150 innings; the upper limit of where he was expected to be.


    Why would Cashman have a lot of explaining to do?
     
  12. Dierking

    Dierking Well-Known Member

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    Sarcasm. Not as much fun as math, I understand, but it has its place here on the message boards. Try to keep up.
     
  13. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    Your sarcasm needs practice.
     
  14. Don

    Don 2008 TGG Rich Kotite "Least Knowledgeable" Award W

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    Wait..so YOU are saying that 170 inning is fine even though every so called expert says it's not. I think it is you that can never stop topping yourself with idiotic remarks. Or wait, you think the post season doesn't count, right? It's just virtual pitching?

    I suppose I should have qualified and said he has never pitched more than 100 innings in the majors.

    Just one of many articles I am sure are out there.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/234898-cole-hamels-should-serve-as-a-warning-for-joba-chamberlain
     
    #134 Don, Aug 13, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2009
  15. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    If they're only "so-called" experts, why are you listening to them?

    And, no, I'm not saying I think it's "fine." I think it's wise to protect your assets for the long term. I just don't see it as the end of the world, either.

    I never said it doesn't count in terms of the physical stress it places on a pitcher. I just said it was never being counted in terms of where they were setting the limit for Joba. It was never going to be, "Welp, he's at 150. Guess we can't use him for the playoffs."

    Are the minor leagues just virtual pitching?


    Look... Joba is a young pitcher whose arm should be protected. I don't know what the magic number is, and I doubt there is such a thing. I know that the Rule of 30 makes a lot of sense. But I also know there are numerous exceptions to that rule, because there are too many variables to account for... the pitcher's age, his physical build, his stamina, his mechanics, his injury history, his usage in a game, how many high leverage pitches he needed to make, etc. So there's a range, and it's not going to be the same for every pitcher.

    Do I want Joba increasing his workload by ten innings each year? No. That's horribly inefficient. Do I want him throwing 110 more innings this year? Of course not.

    The more innings he throws above his limit, the more concerned I'll be. But I'll also wait until it happens before freaking out.
     
  16. Don

    Don 2008 TGG Rich Kotite "Least Knowledgeable" Award W

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    So then what exactly are you saying? It's a +40 rule..40 innings, 40% means the same when he pitched 100 last year..all I am saying is that it is a sham..the Yankees don't care..they just want you to think they do..if they cared they would shut him down after 140..not 170 or 180 or wherever it ends up..obviously, whether you like to believe it or not, Cashman is worried about what happens if they miss the playoffs again this year. Chamberlain should have started in the BP like he did last year. If he had we wouldn't be having this discussion now. Instead, Hughes is in the BP and they are not making him a starter for whatever reason you want to think up.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think there should be any rules. They should just admit there isn't. You can't say there are rules now but they disappear in the post season and expect anybody to take you seriously.
     
    #136 Don, Aug 13, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2009
  17. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    Just because they go over a certain limit doesn't mean it's a sham and they don't care. Like I said, it's not a hard and fast rule. And it's based off the maximum innings pitched, not off of the previous season. Again, most people believed it would be somewhere around 150 innings this year. The Yankees never confirmed that. Perhaps their innings limit for him was higher, for whatever reason.

    Think of it this way... if you drive the speed limit, you're probably going to be fine (although there are still plenty of accidents). If you drive 10mph over the speed limit, you're still probably fine. 20mph over the speed limit? Most people can handle it, but you're increasing the likelihood of something going wrong. 30mph over? Some can do it better than others. 40mph? Pretty dangerous.

    It's the same thing with pitching limits. The rule of thirty is the speed limit for pitchers advancing their workload year over year. Injuries still happen at the speed limit, and pitchers can (and have) pitched more than 30 year over year and been fine. And there's probably a reason for that (better stamina/build/mechanics/usage).

    And I don't think that Cashman is "worried" about missing the playoffs this year. They're in first place by a fair amount. They have the best record in baseball.

    Of course, some people have surmised that it was the mid-year transition that caused his shoulder injury last year.

    As for Hughes, Don, YOU are the one who wants to think up all kinds of reasons. I'm not big on crazy conspiracy theories. Seems pretty clear why they're not moving him right now. Also seems pretty clear that he'll be a starter next year.
     
    #137 Cappy, Aug 13, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2009
  18. AlioTheFool

    AlioTheFool Spiveymaniac

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    Here's a radical idea on why Joba might hit his innings limit and still pitch in the postseason:

    The fact that a World Series title is nowhere even close to automatic.

    Forget any thoughts of someone like Cashman trying to "save his job." The fact is, and the Yankees have proven it at least a couple times this decade, that a legitimate World Series winning-caliber team isn't assured a title. Whenever you have a realistic chance to win it all, you pull out all the stops.

    Do I want to preserve Joba's arm for the future? Hell yeah I do! Would I be willing to risk (and that's all it would be, a risk) his long-term future health for the opportunity to be the last team to win an MLB game in 2009? Hell yeah I would!

    The chances are, he won't pitch that many innings in the playoffs. He'd most likely line up behind Pettitte, if not be completely relegated to pen work. Sabathia and Burnett are the arms that will lead us in October. Joba will simply support the overall effort.
     
  19. kinghenry89

    kinghenry89 New Member

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    There are a few things that are glaringly, horribly wrong with this:

    First of all, you think that the Yankees "don't care" about the health of the future centerpiece of their starting rotation? Really?

    Second, you talk like it's a bad thing that Cashman and Girardi will pull out all the stops to make the playoffs and pursue a championship. I hate to pull out an old Hermism, but YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME.

    The Yankees aren't stupid; they're going to squeeze as many innings out of Joba as they can without putting him in serious danger of injury. That means not following a hard and fast rule, every pitcher's arm is different. I trust that they understand what's safe for Joba better than we do.
     

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