Why We Suck

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by Acad23, Oct 10, 2021.

  1. NYJetsO12

    NYJetsO12 Well-Known Member

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    This was Joe Douglas' big move after inheriting Gase. He put together the Roster and more importantly the Coach s after presumably an extensive search and interview process. Did he not ask LaFleur or Salah who got him what Offense he had in mind before coming here?? I suppose GM should be somewhat aware of that game plan and anticipate how it all comes together. Douglas is no fool..or am I giving his football brain too much credit heh??

    JD has 3 more years here. That aside and based on your spot on analysis Joe should have easily seen this coming . Woud this be a fireable offense??
     
    #161 NYJetsO12, Oct 15, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
  2. NYJetsO12

    NYJetsO12 Well-Known Member

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    Brad doesn't have the whole answer no..but don't forget you are dealing with most inept Owners in. NFL history. I wouldn't put anything past them frankly
     
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  3. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    That's not even close to being true.
     
  4. NYJetsO12

    NYJetsO12 Well-Known Member

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    Really? There are worse?
     
  5. PJ4Ever

    PJ4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Oh I def expected more. A lot of it comes down to wtf else are we going to do? We all know we’re not giving up on this shit team, and the reasonable take is to at least give these new folks the year to make an impression. For me, the early signs on the coaching staff are even more poor than Wilson. Wilson’s been bad but the staff looks truly in over their head so far.
     
  6. jilozzo

    jilozzo Well-Known Member

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    the jets have been in the coaching turnstile for many years now, since groh. always looking for the young gem in the rough.

    i thought we had it with Rex and to some degree i still think he is best for this franchise - problem is he is too thick headed to realize it himself to this day.

    who knows if the current coach is the answer. i guess by 2023 it should be apparent.
     
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  7. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    No, not a fireable offense at all. First, my analysis may not have been so "spot on." Perhaps our offense, even with the same scheme, may not have been struggling at the same level with a different OC, even another rookie OC. It's not necessarily a guaranteed struggle. Perhaps this is just LaFleur's mistakes and learning curve. Perhaps another OC wouldn't have gotten so excited about how advanced Zach is in some ways and allowed that to influence his better judgment and would have adapted the system better to Zach and the other players, and kept things simpler. That said, there's every reason to think that LaFleur will develop into a topnotch OC and perhaps HC. He has the bloodline and coached under and supposedly learned from a great coach for 3 years. While I don't like the unnecessary struggles now, it could pay off down the road. We just have to hope that it doesn't wind up getting Zach killed or ruined before that happens. I think Zach is tough enough mentally to handle all of this, but LaFleur still needs to start doing more to help Zach get in a groove, build his confidence, etc., at the beginning of games.

    IMO it also could have come down to something as simple as choosing the lesser of two evils. Perhaps he was totally impressed with everything else about Saleh except the offense he planned to use and LaFleur. In JD's mind, LaFleur was mitigated by Knapp. None of the other HC candidates may have impressed JD at all or at least come anywhere close to how Saleh did, or perhaps they had even bigger red flags. Then he's choosing between hiring a lesser candidate with an easier system, or hiring the best candidate but with a system that could present a big struggle and perhaps extend the length of time it would take to turn things around.

    Everyone is too quick to want to fire the best GM we've had in a long, long time, and perhaps ever. I was mistaken about firing LaFleur a few games ago, but he does need to make changes. Remember that even with all his experience, JD was a rookie GM when hired. This was his first hire. Expecting someone to be perfect the first time they do something is not realistic. We all are too heavily influenced by 50+ years of losing and frustration with this team. We all need to calm down, step back, take a deep breath, perhaps do some reading and research into teams who have longevity and stability and look at all the mistakes those GMs and HCs made or compare the Jets' situation with the business world. Executives aren't fired after making a mistake unless it's something calamitous, and this situation with the Jets is hardly calamitous. It was always going to be somewhat of a struggle this season and perhaps somewhat next season. That's what happens when a team had little or no talent and has to be rebuilt from the ground up and then has a rookie HC, rookie OC, rookie QB and a lot of other rookies and young players starting and/or playing key positions and minutes.
     
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  8. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    Hey... I'm not saying Woody doesn't belong in the conversation....

    Butt here's been way worse team owners over the years.
    Remember Art Modell or Leonard Tose?
     
  9. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    Art Modell was terrible for Browns fans but he was great for Ravens fans.
     
  10. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    Is that why the NFL forced Modell to sell the franchise?
     
  11. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    The NFL forced Modell to sell because his finances deteriorated badly as he got older. There's a certain minimum cash flow required to operate an NFL team and Modell kept bumping up against that limit as other liabilities came due. This is one of the reasons he moved the team out of Cleveland. He was not able to maintain an adequate cash-flow there and needed real help from the municipality as Browns Stadium aged out. He wound up getting that help from Baltimore.
     
  12. NYJetsO12

    NYJetsO12 Well-Known Member

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    NC last Post>>>>[No, not a fireable offense at all. First, my analysis may not have been so "spot on." Perhaps our offense, even with the same scheme, may not have been struggling at the same level with a different OC, even another rookie OC. It's not necessarily a guaranteed struggle. Perhaps this is just LaFleur's mistakes and learning curve. Perhaps another OC wouldn't have gotten so excited about how advanced Zach is in some ways and allowed that to influence his better judgment and would have adapted the system better to Zach and the other players, and kept things simpler. That said, there's every reason to think that LaFleur will develop into a topnotch OC and perhaps HC. He has the bloodline and coached under and supposedly learned from a great coach for 3 years. While I don't like the unnecessary struggles now, it could pay off down the road. We just have to hope that it doesn't wind up getting Zach killed or ruined before that happens. I think Zach is tough enough mentally to handle all of this, but LaFleur still needs to start doing more to help Zach get in a groove, build his confidence, etc., at the beginning of games.

    IMO it also could have come down to something as simple as choosing the lesser of two evils. Perhaps he was totally impressed with everything else about Saleh except the offense he planned to use and LaFleur. In JD's mind, LaFleur was mitigated by Knapp. None of the other HC candidates may have impressed JD at all or at least come anywhere close to how Saleh did, or perhaps they had even bigger red flags. Then he's choosing between hiring a lesser candidate with an easier system, or hiring the best candidate but with a system that could present a big struggle and perhaps extend the length of time it would take to turn things around.


    Well of course i liked your Post and I apologize for being such a Darksider of late

    In 80% of my Posts I have mentioned how I trust your assessment of Z Wilson ..even vs T Lawrence as a better Candidate for Jets although I wanted TL

    However that 20% re: Wilson is my Doubting Thomas...its just scary. Those throws have been so inaccurate and thats not all LFleurs fault tbh.

    Where we really disagree is in our GM..perhaps the best GM of late who knows? But the gentleman is being paid 3 million a year over six years, and after 3 years no he is no longer a rookie GM. Heres what you said about his choice of Saleh and then agreeing about LaFleur

    For selecting RS the HC: "IMO it also could have come down to something as simple as choosing the lesser of two evils" ...."Then he's choosing between hiring a lesser candidate with an easier system, or hiring the best candidate but with a system that could present a big struggle and perhaps extend the length of time it would take to turn things around."

    So Douglas got us up with a Coaching Staff without an "easy system" ,. TBH NC the 5 games I watched are hardly complex..they are like recycled trash from Gase lol

    For Saleh selecting OC laFleur (and Douglas approving): "I was mistaken about firing LaFleur a few games ago, but he does need to make changes. .."

    "That said, there's every reason to think that LaFleur will develop into a topnotch OC and perhaps HC. He has the bloodline and coached under and supposedly learned from a great coach for 3 years. "

    I dont think you were mistaken at all . Come the next 11 games will you still feel that way? To me I see zero evidence so far that LaFleur is progressing or helping ZW. FTMR I am waiting for the changes and its obvious he cant figure out how to use Moore and Mims effectively. Sorry ..but iam going to hold you your prediction of our OCs greatness heh.

    My take is that this Team is just Top Heavy Rookie across the board and that is not smart. and thats JDs fault...get your rookie HC ok but an experienced OC should have come along not his best friends brother..

    You seem to be in agreement with me: "That's what happens when a team had little or no talent and has to be rebuilt from the ground up and then has a rookie HC, rookie OC, rookie QB and a lot of other rookies and young players starting and/or playing key positions and minutes.[/QUOTE]"

















    I
     
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  13. NYJetsO12

    NYJetsO12 Well-Known Member

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    See Above^^^^^^^
     
  14. HackettStillSux

    HackettStillSux Well-Known Member

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    I've had many debates in my mind (hindsight being 20/20) on whether or not the Jets should have kept Rex Ryan.
     
  15. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    First, my friend, you don't have to apologize to me or anyone else for being a darksider. The way the Jets have played and been run for most of our lives is enough to make anyone a darksider. Actually, I don't know how I am so optimistic and positive, but a lot of that is based on what I see in Zach, and the job I think JD is doing.

    I understand that it is scary seeing how Zach and the offense have played so far. Not everything is LaFleur's fault, but a lot of it is, and I think most of it is fault. Zach has had a bit of a struggle adjusting to the NFL and all that has been put on him, and it is has affected his confidence, and as a result, his accuracy. I'm not worried about that in the least. The only thing I'm concerned about regarding Zach is his getting injured due to GVR's bad play, or LaFleur ruining Zach's confidence by not helping him get in a groove immediately to start the 1st quarter and build his confidence. Just about very other OC in the history of the NFL has done that, but not LaFleur. LaFleur's brother was a great OC and has been a great HC for the Packers. Shanahan is an excellent, if not great HC, and their offensive systems work beautifully. Thus, the potential is there for Mike LaFleur. He may not get there, but I think he has an excellent chance to. Still, if he shows no improvement over the rest of the schedule, and the offense and Zach, in particular, continue to struggle due to LaFleur's stubbornness and refusal to adap his system and play calling, and quit being so predictable, and doing things backwards (attacking weaknesses in the secondary at the start of games, and then making adjustments at half time that help Zach get into a groove for the 2nd half), then he has to go. I will not be patient with the offense struggling again next season because of our OC. We have too much talent on offense already to be so pathetic. This is clearly due to poor coaching, poor game plans, poor play calling, and evidently, poor practice routines. I didn't predict anything with regards to LaFleur. I said that there is every reason to think that he will learn and succeed, but that doesn't mean that will actually happen. Just because his older brother is a successful football coach doesn't mean or guarantee that Mike LaFleur will be, it just means he has a chance. Believe me, if he doesn't learn and show major signs of improvement/development over the rest of the season, no one will be yelling louder for his head than me.

    With regards to JD, we'll just have to agree to disagree. IMO it was no small accomplishment to get the Johnsons to change the org chart and put him in charge. That in an of itself is huge and should pay big dividends for this team. Then he re-vamped how the Scouting Dept. does its job, which has led to better results. I don't think his 2020 draft was nearly as good as this one, but I don't think it realistic to expect that all drafts will be equal. In 2020 he was trying to give the previous Coordinators and HC what they wanted in terms of talent and position. Also, not every draft is equal in quality. Overall, the 2021 draft had a lot more talent in it than the 2020 draft, in part due to Covid. He has done a fabulous job with trades getting more in return than anyone could have expected, and I think done a very good job in FA. I like that he's not overpaying older players to come here. He's had to sign a few stopgap OL (Kalil and GVR) that haven't worked out, but Fant and McGovern have been solid additions. He's brought in a number of very talented and/or good young players that are ascending or in their prime. Not every move a GM makes is going to work out, and I don't think you or anyone could find a GM who would have done a better job. Yes, this is JD's 3rd season, but he was a rookie at hiring a HC, and he hired the consensus best candidate. Yes, JD will get the blame if Saleh doesn't pan out, but when one hires the consensus best HC candidate in the NFL, then that HC should pan out, and imo most of the blame should go on the HC, not the GM. When hiring a HC, one is pretty much discussing overall philosophy, how they will work together, and that kind of thing. There are a lot of day-to-day decisions and actions that must be taken, however, that the GM has no way of assessing since that HC had never been a HC before.

    Yes, the team is top heavy with rookies from CS to players. I disagree that this is JD's fault, as I don't think it's a problem. Some rookie HCs and OCs do very well. The OC hiring was Saleh's to make, not JD's. If JD had tried to force Saleh to hire a veteran OC, Saleh may not have taken the job, and we'd have had another embarrassing situation like with Matt Rhule. That would have been far worse. As I have said, I think JD probably had some concerns with LaFleur being the OC, but he thought that Greg Knapp would have helped guide LaFleur and Zach. There's no way that JD could have foreseen that Knapp would die and not be here, and I truly believe that if Knapp were still alive, LaFleur would already have made some changes, and Zach and the offense would be playing better.

    Yes, struggle is going to happen when one is starting and playing a lot of young players and has a rookie HC and OC. But what were the alternatives? Again, Saleh was the consensus best HC candidate this year. I don't recall any quality experienced HCs being available to hire. I wanted Brian Daboll, and he would have been a rookie HC, but I feel confident that Zach and the offense would have been playing at a higher level. IMO it wasn't wise of Saleh to hire LaFleur, but it's understandable. Like any business or career, it's a small world, networking is key, and getting opportunities usually happens due to the personal relationships one has. I don't know how JD could have brought in many more veterans, as we only have $6-$7 million in cap space at the moment. Also, what's the point of wasting cap space and bringing in some JAG vet to start who isn't nearly as talented as the rookie that was drafted. It might result in another game or two won, but at what cost to the rookie's development, to the cap, to draft position, and to the team turnaround? Even though the struggle this year has been bad, in the long run, it should make the turnaround happen faster. JD and the CS will learn quicker who is a keeper and who isn't. The players will develop faster and develop chemistry with their teammates, and then when more pieces are added, and everyone feels comfortable in the new schemes, the team should be ready to roll. If he had brought in more vets to start this year, they wouldn't have as good an idea about the young players, those young players wouldn't have developed or learned as much, and those vets probably wouldn't be here next year or in 2023, so what's the point? JD is trying to build a sustainable winner, not go all in on a rebuilding year just to win another couple of games. That's a prime example of winning the battle, but losing the war.

    The system isn't complex for fans to watch, but for players to learn and execute. There are lots of options for the offense on each play. A number of different plays can be run from each formation, and a number of plays can be either passes or runs, whereas in other systems there are running plays and there are passing plays, but not so many where either could happen. The WRs have options on every route depending upon the defensive alignment and positioning, situation, etc. It takes time to learn new techniques and blocking schemes, and understand a scheme. That's probably a big part of why Mims hasn't played much. I believe the complexity of the offensive scheme is a major part of why our offense has played so poorly. They're all having to think too much, which results in slower play, mental errors, blown assignments, and players' talents not shining through. I think it's probably part of why the WRs have dropped so many passes and the execution has been so sloppy.

    I know it's frustrating, but hang in there. Better days are ahead.
     
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  16. NYJetsO12

    NYJetsO12 Well-Known Member

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    Wow you wrote a book Brother wtg!But don't worry I won't compete with you ahaha

    So let me just comment on each paragraph bottom to top. If complexity is a problem any good CS would modify it ..by 5 games in. The players have to think too much? So we the fans have to watch them screw up week after week ? It's a lose lose situation. Saleh will have more loses because of deferring to a failed OC system??

    I think your take on why JD chose rookies over Vets is plausible and may pay off. But the price is being paid by the Fans who just are told to wait and wait . JD is constructing the team not the HC and OC..agreed. My point is if he truly is a good GM he can move on from Saleh..yes I liked the hire but not the results seen so far on the field . Are you giving LaFleur too much credit ? Look success by him and Saleh is my only yardstick

    That all said ..I think you figured out JDs thinking given Knapp was supposed to be here. So I get it. But I am supposed to wait till 2023 for this thing to pan out? Really?

    I think your first or second paragraph says it best and I am in complete agreement >>>gotta see Learning and improvement for the OC , if not he's no better than Scottenheimer and must be replaced

    You think we are winning a few games this year and of course I am truly skeptical..we Win ? Great But I would be very happy with some competitive losses for gods sake
     
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