Week 2: Jonathan_Vilma vs. Cakes

I don't get this picture.
It almost looks like the new Buccaneers logo is at midfield.

It is definitely not a Vikings or Golden Gophers logo. The Golden Gophers didn't play at that stadium, anyway.

It also appears there is activity on both sidelines. At The Met both teams were on the same sideline (the sideline which is on the right hand side in the photo).

 

Yes, it certainly is. I just wonder what's on the field. It's like someone messed with the photo.

 

Lineups (note- if it turns out J_V is using a different starting lineup, I will edit this post)
(Hall of Famers in bold)

Jonathan_Vilma-vs-Cakes
Steve Young-QB-Roger Staubach
Eric Dickerson-RB-Marshall Faulk
Matt Snell-RB-John Henry Johnson
Michael Irvin-WR-Paul Warfield
Fred Biletnikoff-WR-Jerry Rice
Antonio Gates-TE-Jackie Smith
Anthony Munoz-LT-Winston Hill
Russ Grimm-LG-John Hannah
Dwight Stephenson-C-Bulldog Turner
Bill Fralic-RG-Larry Little
Ron Yary-RT-Bob Brown

Leslie O'Neal-DE-Tombstone Jackson
Alan Page-DT-Bob Lilly
William Perry-DT-Buck Buchanan
Michael Strahan-DE-Charles Haley
John Anderson-LB-Bobby Bell
Jack Lambert-LB-Dick Butkus
Lawrence Taylor-LB-Jack Ham
Mel Blount-CB-Lem Barney
Jack Tatum-SS-Kenny Easley
Paul Krause-FS-Brian Dawkins
Willie Brown-CB-Roger Wehrli

Jeff Wilkins-K-Jan Stenerud
Chris Gardocki-P-Reggie Roby

Backups
Jonathan-Vilma- QB Len Dawson, RB Joe Perry, WR Torry Holt, LB Tommy Nobis

Cakes- QB Sonny Jurgensen, RB Leroy Kelly, TE Charlie Sanders, CB Hanford Dixon

 

This game features arguably the greatest CB-WR battles of the league.

Mel Blount vs Paul Warfield
and
Willie Brown vs Jerry Rice

Warfield did burn Blount for 3 touchdowns in a 1971 game.



After he considered retirement, Blount came back and did not allow a TD in 1972.

 

Cakes

This team contains six of the 24 players (not including KR, PR, and ST) voted to the All-Time NFL Team as chosen by the Hall of Fame Selection Committee in 2000. (With ten teams here 2.4 is average).

QB- Roger Staubach (retired as all time leading passer)
RB- Marshall Faulk (3,641 touches- 36 fumbles)
RB- John Henry Johnson (Hall of Famer considered by some to be best blocking back ever)
WR- Paul Warfield (was considered a key factor for the undefeated 1972 Dolphins)
LT- Winston Hill (eight-time Pro Bowler)
LG- John Hannah (named all-pro ten straight years)
C- Bulldog Turner (named all-pro six times)
RG- Larry Little (named all-pro and All-AFC seven straight years)
RT- Bob Brown (named all-NFL in seven of his ten seasons)
TE- Jackie Smith (Hall of Famer played in five Pro Bowls)
WR- Jerry Rice

DE- Rich Jackson (1st team All-AFL in 1968 and 1969, 1st team All-NFL in 1970)
DT- Bob Lilly (selected to 11 Pro Bowls)
DT- Buck Buchanan (eight-time Pro Bowler)
DE- Charles Haley (started on five Super Bowl winning teams)
SLB- Bobby Bell (first outside linebacker to be inducted into HOF)
MLB- Dick Butkus (named all-pro seven times in his nine seasons)
WLB- Jack Ham (named to eight straight Pro Bowls)
LCB- Lem Barney (played in seven Pro Bowls)
SS- Kenny Easley (1st team all-pro three times in injury-shortened career; 1984 defensive player of the year)
FS- Brian Dawkins
RCB- Roger Wehrli (seven time Pro Bowler; Hall of Fame finalist in 2006)

K- Jan Stenerud (first pure kicker inducted into HOF)
P- Reggie Roby (three time Pro Bowler)

Substitutions
RB- *Leroy Kelly (named all-pro five times)
TE- Charlie Sanders (played in seven Pro Bowls in ten-year career)
QB- Sonny Jurgensen (five-time Pro Bowler)
CB- Hanford Dixon (1st team all-pro twice, 2nd team all-pro once)

Offense- Opponents are going to get a number of looks here. Most often, plays will be run out of a split-back formation. However, the Shotgun (a formation Staubach is familiar with) will be used at times.
The biggest threat will occur when Faulk lines up as a wide receiver (with Kelly or Johnson in the backfield to protect the passer).
Johnson is considered by many to have been the best blocking back of all time. He was a great runner, too. Johnson gained 1048 yards (on a 4.5 average) with the Steelers in 1964 at the age of 35. However, on this team his primary duty would be to block. Kelly and Faulk will get the vast majority of the carries and most likely they will not give the ball up (these two players simply do not fumble often).

Defense- This will be a 4-3 defense. Opponents must deal with two menacing pass rushers in Jackson and Haley. It will be very difficult to run on this team when you consider who makes up the front seven. The two safeties are punishing tacklers. The cornerbacks are renowned for their coverage skills.

*Kelly compares to Curtis Martin in many ways. Great team player, good person, steady play, etc. Here's another way they compare,
"Even with playing a good portion of his career in New York City, I would have to agree that Martin is the most under-appreciated runner of the last ten years. Sort of like a modern day Leroy Kelly, who never gets mentioned when you talk about great running backs." -Quote posted by some NFL history dude on the internet.

 

--Backfield--

| QB | Steve Young - Highly regarded as one of the most accurate passers ever to play the game. Strong arm, and was recently inducted into the Hall of Fame. Might have inflated statistics had he not sat behind Montana for years.
| Backup | Len Dawson - The undeniable leader of the Chiefs many great AFL teams. Precision passing and a lockerroom leader.

------------------
| RB | Eric Dickerson - One of the most electric players to step on the field. Famous for early on in his career rushing for almost 4,000 yards his first two years in the league. The 80's version of LT and Marshall Faulk. Who could forget the goggles?
| Spell | Joe Perry - Sneaky fast, and the best Compton Junior College has ever produced
| FB | Matt Snell - A big dominating blocker, who took pride in protecting his quarterback. One of the best blockers in the backfield from the AFL, he dominated incoming safeties and was part of the reason the Jets could beat the Colts whom liked blitzing safeties from all different angles.

--The Playmakers--
| WR | Michael Irvin - Whether he is famous for his crack pipes or not, he was a dominant receiver who brought the Cowboys down the field for Smith to score.
| WR | Torry Holt - Part of the Greatest Show on Turf. Still the only receiver to have six straight years of 1300 yards or more, and is a precision route runner at his finest.
| Slot | Fred Biletnikoff - Trophy named after him in College, MVP of Superbowl XI

---------------
| TE | Antonio Gates - Still very young, although proving that he is a dynamic target for any quarterback. Broke record for touchdowns in a season by a tightend.


--The Trenches--
| LT | Anthony Munoz - Easily the best tackle of the modern day era, and arguably the best ever. Dominating pass blocker, and run blocker
| LG | Russ Grimm - Member of the famous "Hogs" nominated as one of the best front five ever.
| C | Dwight Stephenson - Nasty demeanor known for his battles with Joe Klecko
| RG | Bill Fralic - All 80's team and 4 time pro-bowl guard.
| RT | Ron Yary - First played chosen in the 1968 draft, known for his speed, intelligence and agility. Missed two games in his whole career. Played in four Superbowl games, five NFL/NFC championship games.



--Pass rushers--
| RE | Michael Strahan - One of the most dominant sack men in his day and best run stoppers. Combines speed and strength. Holds single season sack record
| LE | Leslie O'Neal - 6 time pro-bowler whom is 7th all time in sacks. A behemoth at 6'4", 285. Will fit in nicely next to Alan Page.

--Run Stuffers--
| NT | William "The Fridge" Perry - Possibly the biggest man to ever play before the 90's. Was once weighed in at as much as 370 lbs. An absolute run stuffer who allowed Singletary to run free and knocked the shit out of ball carriers. Goal line threat as well.
| UT | Alan Page - A straight up pass rusher, who happened to be very strong and stout against the run. NFL MVP in 1971. 173 recorded sacks, 28 blocked kicks, and 3 safeties. Three total touchdowns for a defensive tackle, to pass rush while Perry pushes over lineman

--Linebackers--
| WLB | Lawrence Taylor - Most dominated pass rusher ever. Will play the weakside fine and be turned loose on 3rd down.
| MLB | Jack Lambert - A man who was quoted as saying "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play." Fellow linebacker Jack Ham said he was the most complete middle linebacker ever to play.
| SLB | John Anderson - Known for forcing fumbles, will be the main guy covering the tightend allowing the safeties to play zone. Could've been much much better had he not been injury plagued.

| Extra | Tommy Nobis - Good linebacker.


--Cover men--
| CB1 | Mel Blount - Shut. Down.
| CB2 | Willie Brown - Known for his interceptions and will be playing asside fellow teammate Jack Tatum which will open it up for him to take chances because if they catch the ball, Tatum is drilling them.

| SS | Jack Tatum - The best hitter ever to play the game. He puts Roy Williams and Brian Dawkins to shame. Struck fear into receivers going over the middle. Rarely did recveivers come down with balls after being hit by him.
| FS | Paul Krause - All time interceptions leader.. Considered the best ball hawk ever and will be roaming free with Blount taking out one side of the field.




Jeff Wilkins, K - Clutch field goal, and part of one of the best point scoring teams ever.
Chris Gardocki, P - Very Good punter, has never had a punt blocked.

 

my call for position-by-position winner in parentheses

Steve Young-QB-Roger Staubach (I had Staubach at #5 QB before the draft and Young at #7 or 8 QB, but this is very close)
Eric Dickerson-RB-Marshall Faulk (Faulk)
Matt Snell-RB-John Henry Johnson (Johnson)
Michael Irvin-WR-Paul Warfield (Warfield)
Fred Biletnikoff-WR-Jerry Rice (Rice)
Antonio Gates-TE-Jackie Smith (Smith)
Anthony Munoz-LT-Winston Hill (Munoz)
Russ Grimm-LG-John Hannah (Hannah)
Dwight Stephenson-C-Bulldog Turner (Stephenson)
Bill Fralic-RG-Larry Little (Little)
Ron Yary-RT-Bob Brown (Brown)

Leslie O'Neal-DE-Tombstone Jackson (Jackson)
Alan Page-DT-Bob Lilly (Lilly)
William Perry-DT-Buck Buchanan (Buchanan)
Michael Strahan-DE-Charles Haley (Strahan)
John Anderson-LB-Bobby Bell (Bell)
Jack Lambert-LB-Dick Butkus (Butkus)
Lawrence Taylor-LB-Jack Ham (Taylor)
Mel Blount-CB-Lem Barney (Blount)
Jack Tatum-SS-Kenny Easley (easily Easley; Tatum is out-of-position and not better, anyway)
Paul Krause-FS-Brian Dawkins (tough call; I'll give the other team the benefit of the doubt)
Willie Brown-CB-Roger Wehrli (Brown)

Jeff Wilkins-K-Jan Stenerud (Stenerud)
Chris Gardocki-P-Reggie Roby (Roby)

Backups
Jonathan-Vilma- QB Len Dawson, RB Joe Perry, WR Torry Holt, LB Tommy Nobis

Cakes- QB Sonny Jurgensen, RB Leroy Kelly, TE Charlie Sanders, CB Hanford Dixon
(I'll call the backups even)

 

No offense, but you gave yourself 16 of 32 positions, bro. I thought there was no campaigning other than the depth charts or anything.

 

This was OK'd by Murrell.

If you do the same thing, you'll probably find for your team in all matchups you deem reasonably close. After all, we all probably believe we drafted the best.

Campaigning would be getting your tgg friends to vote for you.

Oh, and p-by-p breakdowns is only one thing I look at. There are other things I have to consider. I haven't voted here yet. I don't give myself an automatic vote.

 

Alrighty. As long as it's approved.

 

The Jonathan_Vilma team is one of the most well-constructed teams in this tournament. He's got one guy out of position (Jack Tatum was actually a free safety), but it's not enough to get all crazy about.
He's got a traditional split end (Irvin) and a flanker (Biletnikoff). He's got a sensible RB tandem.

He's also got four guys who I consider to be the best at their position- Taylor at weakside linebacker, Blount at cornerback, Stephenson at center*, and Munoz at left tackle.

*This one is very close with Mike Webster. The other three I listed I am convinced they were the best at their position.

 

My vote is in. It came down to talent. Everything else is fairly even.

Again, I can split Faulk out as a wide receiver, but otherwise nobody here has any clear strategic mismatch.

These are two of the top four most well-constructed teams.

 

Well thanks. My only worry would be my defensive line vs. your offensive line. My interior should be able to clog it up, but Strahan and Leslie O'Neal may struggle against the tackles leaving off tackle open, and that makes Taylor and Anderson become bigger factors in the run game having less freedom.

 

This is quite a match, very well put together teams in this one

Steve Young-QB-Roger Staubach (Staubach)
Eric Dickerson-RB-Marshall Faulk (Faulk)
Matt Snell-RB-John Henry Johnson (Johnson)
Michael Irvin-WR-Paul Warfield (Irvin)
Fred Biletnikoff-WR-Jerry Rice (Rice)
Antonio Gates-TE-Jackie Smith (Smith)
Anthony Munoz-LT-Winston Hill (Munoz)
Russ Grimm-LG-John Hannah (Hannah)
Dwight Stephenson-C-Bulldog Turner (Stephenson)
Bill Fralic-RG-Larry Little (Little)
Ron Yary-RT-Bob Brown (Brown)

Leslie O'Neal-DE-Tombstone Jackson (Jackson)
Alan Page-DT-Bob Lilly (Lilly)
William Perry-DT-Buck Buchanan (Buchanan)
Michael Strahan-DE-Charles Haley (Strahan)
John Anderson-LB-Bobby Bell (Bell)
Jack Lambert-LB-Dick Butkus (Butkus)
Lawrence Taylor-LB-Jack Ham (Taylor)
Mel Blount-CB-Lem Barney (Blount)
Jack Tatum-SS-Kenny Easley (Easley)
Paul Krause-FS-Brian Dawkins (Krause)
Willie Brown-CB-Roger Wehrli (Brown)

Jeff Wilkins-K-Jan Stenerud (Stenerud)
Chris Gardocki-P-Reggie Roby (Roby)

Backups
QB Len Dawson QB Sonny Jurgensen (Jurgensen)
RB Joe Perry RB Leroy Kelly (Perry)
WR Torry Holt TE Charlie Sanders (Holt)
LB Tommy Nobis CB Hanford Dixon (interesting to see who is more important here, LB to cover TE and CB to cover extra WR, I call this a tie)

 

That was the only one where we disagreed. I'm curious as to why you went with Irvin.

Just looking for a healthy debate here.


My top dozen wide receivers list goes like this (I didn't consider active players):
1. Jerry Rice
2. Don Hutson
3. Paul Warfield
4. Lance Alworth
5. Steve Largent
6. Raymond Berry
7. Sterling Sharpe
8. Cris Carter
9. Don Maynard
10. Charley Taylor
11. Fred Biletnikoff
12. Lynn Swann


From The Sporting News' list of the top 100 players (from 7 years ago):
1. Jerry Rice
2. Don Hutson
3. Lance Alworth
4. Raymond Berry
5. Steve Largent
6. Paul Warfield
7. Charley Taylor
8. Elroy Hirsch
9. Art Monk
10. Fred Biletnikoff
11. Charlie Joiner

A list from an NFL history buff at another message board:
1. Jerry Rice
2. Don Hutson
3. Lance Alworth
4. Paul Warfield
5. Steve Largent
6. Raymond Berry
7. Cris Carter
8. Don Maynard
9. James Lofton
10. Charley Taylor
11. Fred Biletnikoff
12. Sterling Sharpe
13. Tim Brown
14. Tommy McDonald
15. Lynn Swann

I left off some current guys like Randy Moss and Marvin Harrison because their careers aren't really over yet (unlike Jerry Rice).







another fan writes:
Art Monk - I'm not big on Monk because he was usually the #2 WR on his team.
Michael Irvin - really tough guy to rate...spectacular postseason, pretty good regular season, but subjectively I always thought Sterling Sharpe and Cris Carter were superior to Irvin.


Pre-1960:
1. Don Hutson
2. Raymond Berry
3. Tom Fears
4. Mac Speedie
5. Crazylegs Hirsch
-Hutson is easily the best. Berry was all-time WR for awhile, and Speedie was terrific in the AAFC and should be in the Hall.

1960?s:
1. Lance Alworth
2. Don Maynard
3. Charley Taylor
4. Tommy McDonald
5. Bobby Mitchell
-Alworth is the clear #1 guy. Maynard had fantastic speed and hands, and Taylor was the strongest WR I've seen. Tommy McDonald was highly underrated, his 84 TDs were 2nd to Hutson at one time.

1970?s:
1. Paul Warfield
2. Fred Biletnikoff
3. Lynn Swann
4. Drew Pearson
5. Harold Jackson
-Warfield was more of a deep threat than Biletnikoff, so he gets the nod. Even without stats, Swann was fantastic. Pearson was steady and Jackson was a speedster, but both were one-dimensional.

1980?s:
1. Jerry Rice
2. Steve Largent
3. James Lofton
4. Gary Clark
5. Mike Quick/Art Monk
-the 1980's were a strange decade, as really only Lofton and Largent were consistent top producers for most of the time. It kills me to put Clark that high on the list, because I don't think he was THAT good. The 80's had a lot of shooting stars like Collinsworth, Al Toon, Wes Chandler. And they had 'reception eaters' like Art Monk, Charlie Joiner, and Dwight Clark. Very hard to rank guys.


1990?s:
1. Cris Carter
2. Sterling Sharpe
3. Tim Brown
4. Andre Reed
5. Michael Irvin

-I'm biased towards Sharpe, but IMO he was consistently dominant. Carter was like Largent/Biletnikoff, great hands but also big-play potential. I'm really not all that impressed with Brown, Reed, and Irvin, but their main competition was Irving Fryar, Henry Ellard, and Andre Rison. IMO, current WRs like Randy Moss and Marvin Harrison are superior to most of these guys.

 

I do not have time at the moment but I will get to it later today

 

The one matchup I don't understand people giving you the advantage in is the Lilly-Page matchup. Page was the first defensive player to win an NFL MVP and was the leader to arguably the best defense ever whom gave up an average of 9.85 points per game over a two year span.

Finished with 173 recorded sacks, and 28 blocked kicks. Opposing quarterbacks rating were 40.4 mainly because of the pass rush between Page and Carl Eller. And as you said Cakes, I'm not looking for a fight either. I just think many people underestimate Alan Page, even if Lilly was a great defense.

I just want to remind people to look at the matchups as well.

Example: CB Willie Brown on WR Paul Warfield.

Not just the WR comparisons, tackle comparisons etc.

 

I look at the matchups for sure, I just use the position vs position analysis for discussion