Ok I'll say it

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by tomdeb, Sep 26, 2021.

  1. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    which i get, but saleh has been a coach in the NFL for 16 years straight and been to multiple superbowls and won 1. He's been under 2 great head coaches in shannahan and carroll. Rhule has mostly bounced back and forth between the NFL and college but I do see your point that at least he was a head coach at some level even if not the NFL. I'm sure saleh could have gotten a college HC job if he wanted to. a college HC is a step back from being an NFL coordinator. I agree rhule has done a good job overall though but he also has a better roster then saleh.

    I find it hard to give brady credit when he was with the team for 1 season as a WR coach and had jefferson, chase, and marshall jr. 3 WRs who were all high picks in the NFL. LSU had a better WR group that year then most NFL teams had including the jets. I'm sure burrow liked him and he had a great season but he was a WR coach for 3 of the best WRs in college 1 of whom was OROTY and the other 2 are rookies now and chase is already tearing it up and marshall looks good as the WR3 on the panthers.

    as far as injuries go, only thing I can think of outside of bad luck is the field. our field wrecked the niners last season and we seem to get hurt a lot as do the giants. playing half our games on that field could be a factor. injuries seem to happen less often on natural grass
     
  2. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    I think you attach more value to draft picks than the Jets have been able to realize. Another year of poor play would have created a loss, just as a bad draft choice would have. Neither a gain nor a loss was ever guaranteed, it's still unknown what the draft pick will be worth - it's not like the Jets have a history of capitalizing on such things. What one or every GM thought matters not at all, only results count. You're making the assumption that Darnold would have failed this year and so far that has not happened.

    I also think you underestimate the chances of Darnold's improvement - he has, it's only a matter now of how much can be sustained (which actually hurts in what the draft choice turns out to be). It was all about having options going forward rather than throwing all the eggs into the one basket which turned out to be Wilson; time will tell the value of that; right now there's not even a guy available to give him a breather for a game or two.
     
    #262 Ralebird, Sep 30, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
  3. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, how much better is "much better" when he is the worst QB (or one of the worst) in the NFL? Is that still good enough? Did he have as much potential, as high a ceiling as Zach or one of the other QBs in the draft class? The answer was clearly no imo.

    The think you are ignoring is that even though Sam had been working with his private QB coach, Jordan Palmer for 3 years, he still couldn't read a defense any better than any of us, and some posters here could probably read opposing Ds better than Sam, his footwork and mechanics were awful at USC and were still awful (indicating that he either hadn't worked on them or couldn't fix them) and those mechanics made him very inaccurate with his passes. To make things worse, he didn't understand basic fundamentals of QB play in terms of throwing the ball away and other nuances of the position, and his decision making was awful. He routinely was late throwing the ball and threw into double and triple coverage. There's no way any HC or GM in their right minds would have or should have rolled the dice with keeping him based on that alone, but factor in the contract situation, (which you admit is a factor, but based on your comments, you seem to dismiss it as a big factor), and there's no way the Jets should have had to think very long or very hard about keeping Sam. IMO they thought about it too long and too hard. I understand that they wanted to evaluate all the upcoming rookie QBs in the draft class, but imo that should have been a separate issue. Either Sam was worth keeping or not. If not, you trade/get rid of him. After you evaluate the rookie QBs you either decide to take one, or you decide to trade down, add additional picks, focus on building the team in 2021 and look to take a QB in 2022 or later. The latter is not the best way to build as once the team gets better, the draft position will get worse, and that makes it considerably harder and more expensive to trade up to get a QB.
     
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  4. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    It's one thing to be an assistant or coordinator under a HC, even a great one, and quite another to do it one's self, and have all the pressure and decisions to make. Rhule was not only a HC, but a proven successful HC at the two universities he served as a HC. He rebuilt both programs and had them playing at a high level.

    Brady wasn't just WR Coach. He was passing game coordinator, which involved working with Burrow too. Burrow had never come close to playing at the level he did at LSU, either. Yes, LSU had a great WR corps, but they had had that before Burrow too, and their passing attack was nowhere near as good as it was before Brady and Burrow. IMO it speaks volumes that not only NFL and Collegiate football analysts credit Brady, but so does Burrow. If Brady had no part in Burrow's success, he wouldn't be the Panthers' OC. If you don't want to give him credit, fine, but most everyone else does.

    I agree that our field at the stadium is probably part of the problem, but we don't practice on that field all the time. Many of the Jets injuries happened in practice at One Jets Way. Unless that's the same kind of field as the stadium, then you can't really blame the field. Then you're left with looking at the training/conditioning regimen of the individual players and the team, or the practice regimen.
     
  5. BrooklynJetsFan

    BrooklynJetsFan Well-Known Member

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    The problem has been more Wilson than the OLine or LaFleur...it seems in the passing game.

    "Wilson has been pretty successful when he gets the ball out of his hands in 2.5 seconds — 26-of-34 for 158 yards and a touchdown — but things nosedive sharply from there and he’s taken eight of his 15 sacks when holding the ball for more than 4.5 seconds."

    Source: https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...-need-to-get-the-ball-out-of-my-hands-faster/
     
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  6. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    I get your point but college success rarely translates into NFL success. Systems are made easy because of high turnover and it's more about recruiting top players then it is developing them. which is why rookies have trouble and take time. At one time bellichick was an assistant to parcells as was carroll. I'm sure thats part of the reason they are both good coaches. they learned from bill. of course as we seen with bellichick assistants it doesn't always work out but lets not forget bellichick himself sucked as a browns HC. pete caroll was also fired a jets head coach after 1 year and again fired as a pats head coach after 2 years. then he went to seattle and has been a HC there for a decade and won a superbowl. we have to be patient.

    as far as brady goes, mike lafluer had the same position as him but in the NFL where brady was in college. and he had it for 4 years with a top NFL team in the 49ers. brady had it for 1 year and had 3 studs at WR and a stud QB. lafluer has way more experience then brady does and his is in the NFL not college. some players take a few years to click. zach wasn't anything special until his final year of college. lots of QBs "get it" their final year . I mean peyton manning recommended the shitshow of gase and he's the best QB all time arguably. Lots of players credit coaches but it doesn't always mean the coaches were the reason they were good. brady had barely any resume. 1 season as a WR coach and passing coordinator in college on a stacked team. laflauer did it for 4 years in the NFL with lesser talent. I just take things like that said by players with a grain of salt. and carolina has a pretty stacked offense and has done well but isn't setting the league on fire. I'm sure if mike lafluer had a c-mac, robby, moore, marshall jr, and a smart vet like terry at QB he'd have more success then he has here with a rookie QB. On top of that teddy b is playing much better in denver under shurmer and fagnio then he did in carolina. and shurmer is the same guy who was fired by the vikings after 1 season of being an OC and fired by the giants after 2 years of being a HC. things aren't always linear in the NFL. 1 comment by a player who liked a coach doesn't mean he was the reason for burrow to play well.

    as far as the injuries goes our training facility uses the same astro turf as our stadium. this article here https://www.uhhospitals.org/for-cli.../2019/08/artificial-turf-versus-natural-grass claimes "They found athletes were 58 percent more likely to sustain an injury during athletic activity on artificial turf. Injury rates were significantly higher for football, girls and boys soccer, and rugby athletes. Lower extremity, upper extremity, and torso injuries were also found to occur with a higher incidence on artificial turf." maybe it's time to switch to grass.
    on top of that the 5 most injured teams last year were the jets, eagles, cowboys, chargers, and niners. 4 of the 5 play on artificial turf. only the niner splay on grass and the majority of their injuries came in back to back weeks at our stadium on the artificial turf. for as much as the NFL tries to preach safety I really don't understand why they allow teams to use the artificial turf. I get it's cheaper and easier to maintain in the long run and it would cost a ton in overhauling some stadiums and get rid of domes without retractable roofs but it seems like turf causes a lot of issues.
     
  7. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    it's a weighted stat. part of the reason he's taking longer is the pressure is getting to him so fast he has to escape first and by that time he's past the 2.5 seconds and has more rushers coming at him and has to chuck it or get sacked. if he's hit in 1.7 seconds and breaks away from the 1st guy, that puts him past the 2.5 mark already, then the 2nd guy gets him. can't fault zach for that. that number without the true context is meaningless.
     
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  8. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I agree with such a general statement as college success rarely translates into NFL success. A lot of NFL coaches got their start in coaching at the collegiate level, not the NFL. You have a point that in college there is a high turnover rate and it's more about recruiting, but Rhule didn't coach at a school like OSU or Alabama, or Clemson. He got few top players, and he had to develop the players he got.

    Some assistant coaches learn from working with great coaches and some do not. I won't go into the reasons they don't because that's not the point of my discussion.

    So you know more about the situation and who helped Burrow develop than Burrow himself does. Do you hear yourself? That's just laughable!!! The stats back it up as well that Burrow was nothing special until he had played a season at LSU. SMH

    Mike LaFleur got his start due to nepotism. Brady didn't. Burrow wasn't a stud until he played at LSU. What success did LaFleur have in those 4 years? Not very much. Brady accomplished something. LaFleur (at least learn how to spell his name correctly) has not. The resume means squat once they get a job, then it's results, and Brady's results blow LaFleur's away. It's not even remotely close.

    Carolina isn't setting the league on fire because they don't have a top QB, their TEs are meh, and their OL is not a great deal better than ours. We'll never know, but I'd be willing to bet that if Brady was our OC rather than LaFleur, Zach and the offense would be playing at a much higher level, and we might have won a game or two by now, and Carolina would probably be 0-3.

    Thanks for the info that the turf is the same in both places. I've always hated turf and preferred natural grass. Turf has always caused more injuries and probably always will.
     
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  9. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    well thankfully someone did the research on college head coaches here https://www.si.com/nfl/jaguars/news...s-about-urban-meyers-chances-with-the-jaguars jim harnorough was a huge success then went back to college. outside of him they have all been failures. chip kelly and bill o biren are the only 2 with winning records and actually werent bad coaches. their issue was they wanted roster control like in college and were awful GMs. BoB ruined the texans then got fired, however according to the new book on the patriots he was purposely trying to get fired to replace bellichick in NE. he's back at college now. Chip kelley got fired in less then 3 seasons in philly, then went to SF for a season and was fired. then took a year off and is back in college. kingsbury and rhule are too soon to judge although kingsberry has the cards looking good right now but is in year 3. rhule only had 1 year. Not a single college head coach that made the jump in the past 20 years has made a playoff or stuck around in the NFL longer then 3 years except harborough. so not counting the 2 new ones, thats 1 our of 9 that was actually good and decided to go back to college after pissing off the NFL owners. the other 8 failed and are back in college. I think it's pretty clear the success rate is very low.

    I'm not saying I know more. I'm saying its 1 comment form 1 player. same way manning gave comments about gase being great. and manning has a lot more credibility then burrow. I'm saying I won't take the single word from 1 person. LSU had a Qbs coach. and he was that for 2018 when burrow 1st arrived a year before brady came along. your telling me that year he spent with burrow as a QB coach had 0 effect on burrow? and that brady who was there for 1 offseason had all the effect? You are the one being laughable here. oh and after brady left LSU won the championship in 2020 with steve ensminger as the OC and QB coach. the stats back up ensminger having more of an effect then brady. I'm sure brady helped as well but burrow is also just a good QB. the claim 1 person is the only reason he is good is just wrong. Bradyw as also around at a good time. the NFL is very much a copy cot league and the "young offensive genius" coaches were hot commodities becuase of guys like kingsberry and sean mcvey. so brady was seen as the want by the league. Neither me nor you know everything that went on with LSU or how much time either spent with burrow so your claim is just completely false. Hell I can't even find anywhere joe burrow said what you claimed. so IDK what you are on about for the OC who had a solid vet QB (who performed better after leaving the team) the best RB in football. a great WR core with anderson, moore and samuel and a greta defense yet still only had the leagues 20th best offense and went 5-11. Brayds results are less then impressive so far and lafluer only has 3 games under his belt. but again here you go getting angry because someone doens't agree with non sense you are posting that you can't back up.
     
  10. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    LOL I'm not getting angry. Quit judging when you have no clue what you're talking about. You're the one making up shit and being an arrogant know-it-all asshole. You can't even be bothered to spell our OC's name right, and we're supposed to trust your knowledge and opinion. You have a small mind that is so narrow in scope and rigid. You truly are pathetic.

    I wasn't talking just about college HCs who went straight to NFL HCs. Lots of position coaches and coordinators in the NFL started out coaching in college and gained valuable experience. Some were position coaches in the NFL went to colleges and became coordinators and/or HCs then came back to the NFL. Pete Carrol says that after he failed with the Jets and Pats, he sat for a year or two and took a hard look at himself and tried to figure out his mistakes. Then he went to USC and continued working on his coaching style/philosophy. It isn't as black and white as you portray it.

    Yes, I'm telling you precisely that Brady was the big difference with Burrow. Look at Burrow's stats in 2018 and then compare them with 2019 with Brady there. Night and day difference. His completion percentage was 19 percent higher in 2019, he doubled his passing yardage, almost quadrupled his TD passes, improved his YPA by 33%, his AY/A was about 50% improved, only threw 1 more pick in 2 more games, and his QBR was about 70 points higher.

    https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/joe-burrow-1.html
     
  11. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    ok bud. see there you go flinging insults when someone doesn't see things your ways even when you provide zero proof and based around 1 comment nobody can seem to find. All I did was provide evidence of sites and played devils advocate to watch you ignore all that and go off the rails like always. nobody said his stats didn't go up but you claim it was the guy with him 1 offseason and not the guy who personally recruited him and was the QB coach and OC for him for a full season before brady even arrived. but sure keep going with insults. it's amusing watching you make an ass of yourself like always
     
  12. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    Idk that’s just 1 way of looking at it.

    Could take the same stat and just as easily say “when the WRs get open, Wilson gets the ball out quickly. When they aren’t, he has to hold onto the ball and struggles. LaFleur needs to find a way to create open WRs”
     
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  13. Footballgod214

    Footballgod214 Well-Known Member

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    I read the same article, and came away with the same question: How many time Z held the ball 4+ seconds was he running for his life 1.5 seconds into the play. Also, if his WRs are not getting open (at all), then they are to blame too, along with Z not hitting his outlet.

    But the good news is, when he sees a WR open and the oling gives him time, he can do very well.
     
  14. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    Which NFL QB's hold the ball for 4.5 seconds?

    We've known for a generation now that 2.5-3 seconds is the interval the ball can be held before something bad happens.

    This isn't on the "passing game", it's on Zach Wilson for not throwing the ball away when the alarm in his head goes off.

    That's most likely because he doesn't have that alarm set yet.

    One of the ways that you can get a young NFL QB to set that alarm and obey it is to take him off the field for a few plays when he has gotten hit or thrown a pick because he didn't listen to it. It's a time-honored method that has worked for a number of Hall of Famers that started early in their career, including John Elway, Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw and Drew Brees (soon to be).
     
    #274 Br4d, Oct 2, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
  15. BrooklynJetsFan

    BrooklynJetsFan Well-Known Member

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    No. He needs to bail or go through his progressions faster or throw the ball away.

    Look at Russell his first two years. He was amazing at bailing…running to the sidelines or throwing away, all while he was hit the most of any QB in his first two seasons.
     
  16. GreenWhiteandGold

    GreenWhiteandGold Well-Known Member

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    Good Evening, Sir
     
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  17. BrooklynJetsFan

    BrooklynJetsFan Well-Known Member

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    The defense won this. Wilson can be very good / mostly due to his mobility and throwing on the run. But this game should have never went to OT.

    He’s work in progress - but can deliver some electrifying plays
     
  18. NYJetsO12

    NYJetsO12 Well-Known Member

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    Wilson has a unique skill set

    I like the way he told Corey D to go long like he was playing sandlot football..Sam couldnt do that tbh
     
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  19. NYGANGGREEN

    NYGANGGREEN Well-Known Member

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    he really does once we get a good Oline and better weapons watch out
     
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  20. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    I'm not sold on Wilson at all. He did make some decent throws today including the deep throw to Davis but he still throws off of his back foot too often and he still throws across his body too often and he still throws to the opposite sideline too often.

    I'm really glad he played well enough for the Jets to win today but the ceiling I am seeing out of him is way lower than what most people think it is.
     

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