(2) 1999 Rams Code: Head Coach: Dick Vermeil DT Ray Agnew CB Taje Allen DE/DT Lionel Barnes CB Dre' Bly WR Isaac Bruce S Devin Bush S Ron Carpenter DE Kevin Carter LB Charlie Clemons S Rich Coady LB Todd Collins TE Ernie Conwell CB Clifton Crosby DT D'Marco Farr RB Marshall Faulk LB London Fletcher QB Joe Germaine C Mike Gruttadauria WR Az-zahir Hakim RB Derrick Harris DT Nate Hobgood-Chittick RB James Hodgins RB Robert Holcombe WR Torry Holt P Mike Horan WR Tony Horne DT Gaylon Hyder S Billy Jenkins LB Mike A. Jones QB Paul Justin RB Amp Lee TE Chad Lewis LB/DE Leonard Little CB Todd Lyght S Keith Lyle CB Dexter McCleon C/G Andy McCollum T Fred Miller LB Mike Morton C Tom Nutten T Orlando Pace LB Troy Pelshak WR Ricky Proehl DE/TE Jeff Robinson G Cameron Spikes LB Lorenzo Styles WR Chris Thomas G Adam Timmerman T/C Ryan Tucker P Rick Tuten QB Kurt Warner RB Justin Watson K Jeff Wilkins DT/DE Jay Williams TE Roland Williams DE Grant Wistrom DT Jeff Zgonina vs. (15) 2007 Patriots Code: Head Coach: Bill Bellichick Alexander, Eric LB Andrews, Willie CB Brady, Kyle TE Brady, Tom QB Britt, Wesley T Brown, Troy WR Bruschi, Tedy ILB Cassel, Matt QB Colvin, Rosevelt OLB Eckel, Kyle RB Evans, Heath FB Faulk, Kevin RB Gaffney, Jabar WR Gay, Randall CB Gostkowski, Stephen K Green, Jarvis DE Gutierrez, Matt QB Hanson, Chris P Harrison, Rodney SS Hobbs, Ellis CB Hochstein, Russ G Izzo, Larry LB Jackson, Chad WR Kaczur, Nick T Koppen, Dan C Light, Matt T Lua, Oscar LB Mankins, Logan G Maroney, Laurence RB Meriweather, Brandon DB Mitchell, Mel DB Moore, Rashad DT Morris, Sammy RB Moss, Randy WR Neal, Steve G O'Callaghan, Ryan T Paxton, Lonie LS Richardson, Mike DB Samuel, Asante CB Sanders, James FS Scott, Chad CB Seau, Junior ILB Seymour, Richard DE Smith, Le Kevin DT Spach, Stephen TE Spann, Antwain DB Stallworth, Donte' WR Thomas, Adalius ILB Thomas, David TE Ventrone, Raymond DB Vrabel, Mike OLB Warren, Ty DE Washington, Kelley WR Watson, Benjamin TE Welker, Wes WR Wilfork, Vince NT Wilson, Eugene FS Woods, Pierre LB Wright, Mike DE Yates, Billy G
I'd take the Rams because they could run the ball better with Faulk, keeping the Patriots offense off the field.
Unfortunately they have an offensive coordinator who 2 years later would refuse to run the ball against against a scrappy defense that played 6 and 7 defensive backs for much of the game and failing to run in that one game started the downfall of his career.
Considering that the 2000-01 Rams were a better team than the 1999-00 Rams, and considering further that they lost to a worse Patriots team than this one, seems to me this is an easy question.
I suspect you understood the point, because you deleted the part that clarifies it. But I'll rephrase: Considering the 2001-2002 Rams were better than the 1999-2000 Rams, and considering further that they lost to a worse Patriots team than this one, seems to me this is an easy question.
I cut your quote in half because I was only commenting on the first half. I was not pointing out a typo on your part. I truly thought you were writing about the 2000 Rams who lost a Wild Card game in New Orleans. Now that I see you were writing about the 2001 Rams, I'll ask the same question. How do you figure the 2001 Rams were better than the 1999 Rams?
This is a great matchup, 2 high powered O's and 2 good Ds. '99 was definitely better if nothing more than they had a much better HC. Warner was also much better in '99, that '99 SL team would definitely give this Pats team a run for their money. I just think Brady is the biggest factor in a game btw these 2 so I'd take NE.
Touch and feel, mostly. Statistically, pretty similar years, but the 2001 Rams were preeminent favorite the entire year, and the enormity of their Superbowl loss speaks volumes. A two touchdown favorite, if I remember right. They were expected to win, and that perception doesn't translate as well over time. 1999 wasn't the same. Their success surprised most people, and they won that Superbowl by all of two yards and ten seconds.
In '99 they won by an average of 18 points per game scoring 33/gm and allowing 15/gm. In '01 they won by an average of 14 pts/gm scoring 31 and allowing 17/gm. That right there shows the '99 team was more dominant and let's not forget NE gave SL all they could handle in their reg season meeting. We didn't know what Tom Brady was back in 2001 and how good NE really was, looking back it wasn't quite the upset we all thought it was. Obviously Brady wasn't as good then as he is now but he was as clutch then as he is now.
Not unless you can also break down the strength of schedule to support it. Even then, it's not a definitive stat. Nice, though. So, as a necessary corollary to your position, we'd also have to say that St. Louis wasn't as good as we thought they were back when we were actually seeing them play? Again, our expectations for that 2001 team were absolute, and that doesn't translate as well over time - which is well-illustrated by your point.
Good point, the '01 Rams did have a tougher road but again the better Warner played in 1999 and Martz vs. Vermiel is no comparison. Martz was handed a potential dynasty and completely screwed it up.
Couldn't agree more. When the Rams hired Vermiel, I thought the game had long since passed him by. Boy was I wrong.
The stats for the 1999 and 2001 Rams were similar. The 1999 team outscored opponents 526-242. The 2001 team outscored opponents 503-273. The 1999 numbers would be slightly better if you discard the Week 17 game. Unlike 2001, in 1999 the Rams had secured the 1 seed early in the NFC. They didn't put forth much of an effort in the season finale. The Rams lost to a garbage Eagles team, 38-31. For all intents and purposes, the 1999 Rams were a 13-2 team which outscored opponents 495-204. That still doesn't make the 1999 team better than the 2001 team, but all of that is worth mentioning. The offenses were very similar. The defenses were a bit different. The 1999 team had a better line. 1999's line of Kevin Carter, Ray Agnew, D'Marco Farr, and Grant Wistrom was better than 2001's line of Chidi Ahanotu, Brian Young, Jeff Zgonina, and Wistrom. OLBs- Mike Jones and Todd Collins of 1999 or Tommy Polley and Mark Fields of 2001? Tough to say, but I lean towards the 1999 tandem. The 2001 secondary was probably better than the 1999 secondary. I give the 1999 team the edge because of the coaching staff. Vermeil as the head coach and Martz as the offensive coordinator was better than Martz as the head coach and Bobby Jackson as the offensive coordinator. I don't know what expectations and Vegas lines have to do with the 2001 team maybe being better than the 1999 team.
It's really the only objective way to measure perception. If the idea is to coax-out money, point spread is the nearest way we can tell what people at the time perceived the strength of each team. In the end, this is a debate that can't fairly be decided. It's almost like comparing Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds, because of the rules that weren't enforced back then. The 2007 Patriots couldn't play the same defense that the 1999 could, or 2001 Patriots did. A topic for another day is how Belichick, in his wily wisdom, figured out that that the rules now favor pass-happy teams. Parcells used to say, "Only three things can happen on a pass, and two of them are bad." That should be updated to, "Only four things can happen on a pass, and two of them are good."
I don't care how bettors perceived the 1999 Rams, 2001 Rams, and 2001 Patriots. I am only concerned with trying to decide for myself which of those two Rams teams was the better one. Parcells may have said that line above, but he wasn't the originator. I believe Darrell Royal was that man.
