New York Jets' defense could benefit greatly from switch to 4-3

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by Pluvrr, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. MadBacker Prime

    MadBacker Prime THE Dead Rabbit

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    I'm looking forward to the preseason, really hoping that Davis can matchup with some TEs. I saw some reports that he was looking good dropping back in coverage.
     
  2. dcm1602

    dcm1602 Member

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    Do you think that since were switching to the 4-3 were gonna bring Gholston back ?
     
  3. laxin

    laxin Active Member

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    Of course, why do you think we cut those two players???
     
  4. Barcs

    Barcs Banned

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    Haha. Gholston is so beastly he counts as 2 players!
     
  5. Zach

    Zach Well-Known Member

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    Ok... it's a late reply to an already dead thread - but I had to chirp in - more or less because this is one of those fantasy-driven bullshit if at all. In short, he just does not talk about who plays 3T in 4-men front scheme.

    All right... why do I think this piece is a bullshit? 4-3 defense is predicated by the the ability of the front four to generate enough of pressure to the QB. Obviously, the two DEs will come crashing in from both edges. But... how about the interior of the line?

    Ever since the days of Steel Curtain, the pressure up the middle has never been emphasized enough. While the nose guard takes on the blockers - usually 2- the 3T slants and crashes through the gap, collapsing the pocket and forcing the QB to get rid of the ball. So... who plays 3T for the Jets? Coples MAY play at 3T every once in a blue moon (he's too light to play DT if anything) Pouha will be playing NG. So is there anyone Jets can count on to provide enough pressure from 3T position? If they have 3T on roster, I haven't seen one. Kenrick Ellis - he's as good as a rookie this year. You can't expect him to have formidable presence at 3T this year.

    What's worse is, if Ellis turns out to be another NG type of player. (which is a possibility, btw) - strong against the point of attack, capable of taking on multiple blockers, etc, but not fast enough shooting through the gap. Now Jets run what, Bates style 4-3? Jets LBs are too slow for that.

    So, even with the four men front, Jets DL still has a lot to answer. It's not really as if four men front allows your best athletes on the field. We don't know that yet.
     
  6. Petey

    Petey Active Member

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    I'm definitely not as educated as you when it comes to this stuff, so I'm just gonna ask-- The article says Mo Wilkerson fit the mold of the 3T you're describing, would that work? Is he the ideal player for that scheme?
     
  7. JUNJOBX2199

    JUNJOBX2199 New Member

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    unless the front 4 are reeking havoc then the secondary become the issue with this kind of switch. There is a lot of passing the receiver off to the next guy and we don't have fast enough personnel for this. Every time the Jets Have ran the 4-3 defense we have either suffered in the secondary or stopping the run. No thanks, I like the Defensive scheme the way it is now. Our problem was speed and I think w have upgraded that with our additions the lats two years. Leave it alone if its not broken.
     
  8. Jake

    Jake Well-Known Member

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    ^The front seven got little to no pressure on the QB in '10 and '11 and the pass D was a strength each time so not sure about that assertion. Our CBs will play bump and run regardless of the front.
     
  9. Footballgod214

    Footballgod214 Well-Known Member

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    How about that special 'Buddy Ryan' defense the Bears ran? Do we have the players for that D? I read somewhere Rex wants to run some of it.
     
  10. Jake

    Jake Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. We've ran some 46 from 09-11 at various times and will continue to. Landry and Bell will see time in the 46 and "Big Nickel" packs at Safety.
     
  11. Footballgod214

    Footballgod214 Well-Known Member

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    ^^^^ ah yeah, the 'big nickle' was the other. So, how does the 4-6 work exactly, and why don't more teams run it?
     
  12. Jake

    Jake Well-Known Member

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    The SS plays up in the box akin to a LB, FS is often in Cover 1 and CBs in press cover. This scheme is great for stopping the run and fucking up 5 and 7 step dropbacks. Not a lot of teams run it because you need trusty cover corners and one can't solely rely on it since adjustments can be made to combat the 46. It can't be a base defense anymore but is certainly a weapon in our arsenal.
     
  13. NYDeadEye

    NYDeadEye Member

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    Off the top of my head I don't think a lot of teams run it because it requires exceptional CBS who can run man to man without safety help as the safeties are in shallow to stop the run.
     
  14. Harpua

    Harpua Well-Known Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/46_defense

    More teams now days try to rely on their front four to get pressure and run a lot of cover two with the safties deep. The 46 allows you to have a eight in the box look but still disguise where your bringing your pressure from on blitzes. It requires great play from both your down linemen and coverage from your corners, because they often have no help.

    We run a version of this now. It's considered to be weaker against the west coast offense that relies on short timing routes, but both Rex and rob have made it work with athletic corners playing press coverage. Landry could have a huge season out of this type of set.
     
  15. Jeti

    Jeti Well-Known Member

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    We just dont have the DE's to properly play a full time 4-3 ala the Giants

    If we had JPP and Tuck then I'd be down but we dont our goal should be to get an elite pass rusher off the edge who can also play the run effectively
     
  16. Footballgod214

    Footballgod214 Well-Known Member

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    ^^^^Thanks. That's twice now I've heard Landry. Dude's ripped. Hope he kills ppl and stays on the field! We only have him for one year....don't know what the future holds.
     
  17. Zach

    Zach Well-Known Member

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    1. Mo Wilk is a 3-4 DE - so yeah, theoretically he can fill the need in terms of physical requirements. Now, the job description is starkly different - he needs to go in and disrupt the middle of the pocket. Yeah, He can do it. Will he be effective doing it? Nobody knows for sure.

    2. That said, If Mo Wilk goes inside as a 3T, then that leaves another hole - edge rushing DE - open; and Jets only have 1 Coples. Maybin is too light to even consider putting at the edge, and if you think putting Calvin Pace at DE spot will produce anything with half semblance of pass rush, you are sorely mistaken. Cardinals already tried that and failed miserably - and that was almost a full decade ago. Now, probably on his last leg, why would he be an effective edge rusher that he wasn't when he was much younger?

    3. So it comes down to this: Jets can man Coples and Wilkerson to fill TWO holes at all times, but 4 men front requires THREE men who can wreck havoc. Thus, unless Kenrick Ellis becomes an effective 3T (good luck with that - he's more of NT mold, if I didn't tell you yet. He's almost 350 lb monster with towering 6' 5" physique) I don't see how this is going to be effective. Rather, going full 46 would be more beneficial. (This is because then Pouha, Ellis and Wilkerson can line up against opposing G/C/G and just rape them; then, however, spread offense will be that much harder to stop.)

    46 defense is very effective when the offense is turtling in; i.e. going max pro with 21/12 or even 22 personnel package because then the lack of speed from the defense is compensated by the close set-up of the offense. Then the QB is in for a long day; he won't know where the blow is going to come from. That was precisely what the offenses did when they didn't know how to solve 46 back in 85; they tried to provide as much protection as possible, getting basically everybody around the QB. It almost resembled a siege warfare, where the assaulting team almost always knew what trick they had up their sleeves, with the poor defending souls always in search of a way - any way for that matter - for survival. (You can easily see how Buddy changed the mentality entirely - now the aggressors had to find a way to protect - and survive while the defenders were coming after the offense like blood hounds.) Many experiments have been done - and failed miserably. When the offense is tightly clustered, then the defense almost always had upper hand because now 1. the passing attack didn't have enough threat downfield and 2. the QB had to figure out just HOW the defense will blitz him - a near impossible task when there are so many possibilities.

    As such, the best antidote against 46 is spread offense - the kind New England runs. Then the defense has to spread out too, which at the same time takes the element of surprise away as well. Thus, with the pass-oriented rules in place, spread shot-gun offense is installed in nearly every offensive package - making it near impossible to use 46 as the base package.

    It was this specific reason that I became a hard-core supporter of 3-3-5 triple stack. Finding the right personnel will be a challenge (and it will be a huge one; specifically, finding two rovers *SS/OLB tweeners* that can play well is going to be very hard at NFL level.) but once it's up and running, it can run all sort of stuff without compromising the pass coverage at any level.
     
    #37 Zach, Jul 22, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012

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