Let's talk WR's

Discussion in 'Draft' started by REVISion, Jan 5, 2022.

  1. MaximusD163

    MaximusD163 Well-Known Member

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    I think the concept of separating is misunderstood by a lot of people too. Burks is a player who fits very, very well into the Jets offense and his role probably wouldn’t be split wide all of the time, at least not at first. He’s a guy with excellent power as a ball carrier and you can see instant explosion where he cruises through zones and then as soon as the ball is in his hands, he’s accelerating with his very first step.

    The thing that gets me so excited with Burks is lining up him all over, slants and screens from the slot or wide, Texas routes out of the backfield, drag routes, mixing him into the sweep and reverse packages. I think in the right system he’ll be a YAC beast. Digs, Gos, Double moves, probably won’t be his bread and butter early in his career, but he does have good contested catch ability. I think he’d be a great addition to the Jets offense but he would probably do a lot more Y/H stuff early than X/Z.

    As far as separation, he won’t have to win that way all of the time, he’ll have a lot of situations where he will be can be in motion pre snap which can help formulate separation in man, and he’ll be a zone monster. He’ll have time to become more complete, and I think Deebo Samuel is a really good comp for him.
     
  2. NYJFOREVER

    NYJFOREVER Well-Known Member

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    Interesting you said Deebo. I kinda saw some AJ Brown in his game. A big boy spot receiver with insane acceleration when he gets the ball.

    Burks is my favorite WR for the Jets.
     
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  3. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    Normally, I would agree since Edge is so important and we haven't drafted one in the 1st round since Gholston. In this instance, WR is more important. Developing Zach still has to be the #1 priority. It doesn't matter how good the pass rush or D is if Zach's WRs can't get open or catch the ball. He needs elite playmakers. Sign a FA TE and draft one in the 2nd or 3rd round. Draft an elite WR prospect. Add a RB in the 4th or 5th round. They can add an Edge with one of their 2nds.
     
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  4. REVISion

    REVISion Well-Known Member

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    An interesting stat that's getting thrown around regarding WR prospects right now is what % of their catches are contested. A high % indicates they aren't getting separation from DB's consistently.

    London's % is the highest of the main guys in this class, around 27% I want to say. Usually it's only a cause for concern at 35%+ and I do think London is different because he's so tall that he doesn't really need separation as much as most other WR's - he can just outjump or box out DB's even if he's covered like glue.
     
  5. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    With Jameson Williams having ACL torn, I am not sure if Burks will be in the conversation for #4 pick, where I think JD will be trying to get Edge. #10 is a possibility, but all depends on whether he values him as an elite receiver and how much he values other guys that may be there, like Linderbaum, Ekonwu, Cross, etc...

    It's probably a pipe dream, but if JD trades back a little bit from #4, still gets Karlaftis, then uses the assets he got to trade up from second to first and snatch Burks, while using #10 on Linderbaum. The other 2nd rounder would then be used for a TE, and the rest more defense focused with some OL mixed in.
     
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  6. MaximusD163

    MaximusD163 Well-Known Member

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    I see that but Burks has more wiggle to him than Brown
     
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  7. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Unless he blows the top off of the Combine, I don't think he'll make it to #4. I think around 10 may be about right.

    I don't get your obsession with wasting draft picks trading up. We'd have to give up one of our 2nds and probably our 3rd as well, and maybe more. I want Burks and would love to have Linderbaum, but I'm not interested in burning draft picks to get both. At this point, I'd rather JD trade down from #4 to #9, get both Denver's #2s and both #3s, take Linderbaum and #9 and Burks at #10, and pass on Karlaftis altogether. That can change after I watch a lot more video of the prospects.

    If we could trade down with Denver, that would give us 4-2nd round picks and 3-3rd round picks. JD could really change the talent level, depth, and address a LOT of needs on the team. With Linderbaum and Burks in the 1st, McBride (TE), Jermaine Johnson (Edge), Zion Johnson (OG), and Lewis Cine (S), in the 2nd, and Brandon Smith (OLB) and another OL and CB in the 3rd, the makeup of this team would be dramatically different.

    In the 2nd round I think the Jets could still get a quality Edge prospect. I've read some good things about each of the following Edge prospects: Jermaine Johnson, Travon Walker, Sam Williams, Myjai Sanders, or maybe A. Ebikitie or Cameron Thomas. I haven't seen film on any of them yet, but did see Williams play one game and he looked pretty good and the announcers were raving about him and his potential, and I saw Travon Walker in the National Championship game, and he looked like a quality player.
     
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  8. NYJFOREVER

    NYJFOREVER Well-Known Member

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    Do you think Burks has the lateral ability/fluidity to play WR in our offense?
     
  9. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember too many impactful Edge players taken in second round or beyond. Crème of the crop in Edge will be gone in the first round. Some productive players, I guess could slip, but we need more than that. Ideally Saleh and JD are convinced Karlaftis is it. A high quality edge can drastically change entire defense. Then Zach will get more time on the field and does not have to always play catch-up. The trade up I am talking about is burning a second to get a top Edge in the draft if JD feels Hutch is Bosa and Karlaftis is not close. If JD thinks gap is not that large, then I also would not trade up. But I do feel we need to get high quality Edge in this draft, which I doubt will be available in the second.
     
  10. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    As I've said several times to posters, the D is irrelevant to Zach's development. It's dumb to think otherwise. More opportunities don't mean squat if when the offense gets the ball, none of the WRs can get open or catch the ball. The best way to ensure that Zach develops is to add some elite weapons around him and make sure the OL is solid. Odds are we aren't getting a shot at Thibodeaux or Hutchinson, and they aren't even all that elite compared with the Bosas and some others who have been in the draft. Karlaftis has some serious question marks, and unless the film changes my mind dramatically, taking him at #4 would be a big reach. I'm sure not taking him over Burks.

    Hutch is not Bosa, and I doubt he'll think that Karlaftis is close. You're thinking JD could trade up from #4 to #1 or #2 for only a 2nd is not realistic. Mac had to grade 3 #2s and our #1 to move up from #6 to #3 4 years ago. It would take at least that to move up. After trading up last year, trading up again this year is the last thing we should do.
     
  11. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    I know Zach needs that #1 WR 1000+ yards receiver. I am just not sure Burks is the guy yet. And I see some options in FA WR market, which I don't see for Edge. Also, while last year was about Zach, this year is not just that. We need to be relevant again, and I think it can be done. I don't want to see another tank. That means, yes getting WR1, getting OLine help, getting TE, and also having a defense that's not the absolute worst in NFL in every meaningful category. That means a much better Edge among other things.

    The questions is, where are the best places to get all this talent. For Edge I don't see FA market as a possible choice. WR may be, we will have to see how it plays out. I also don't see second round as a great option for Edge, because it rarely worked historically. Like you said, this year there is some talent at Edge, and we need to get the best one we can. Yes, Jets did give up 3 first round picks to move up 3 spots in 2018, but this was for a QB. The price will not be as high this time. If it is, I would be against the move. But Neal and better of Ekonwu/Cross are not that far in value. If Jags want one, they can still get one, plus a #35 overall, which is almost a first rounder. Like I said this is not very realistic, but just an idea. If not, I guess we will have to find out what JD does, but when it is all said and done, I think Karlaftis will be gone by pick 10.
     
    #111 Borat, Jan 15, 2022 at 12:20 AM
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022 at 12:26 AM
  12. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    We'll have to agree to disagree, because imo NOTHING is more important than developing Zach, so that means every year until either Zach develops into the FQB we want or until we determine that he isn't and never will be that FQB, is about Zach first and foremost. As you know QB is the most important position, this is a passing league, and as QBs go, teams go. All the Edge rushers in the world can't make up for a bad QB. Most, if not all, of the best teams have great QBs, and don't have elite Edges.

    I don't think it matters to the team holding the pick why you want to trade up or who it's for unless they want that player. It doesn't matter to them whether you're trading up for a QB, Edge, WR, CB or whatever.

    You haven't seen a tank yet, so you can't see another.

    Very good FA WRs cost a fortune, and FA WRs rarely work out for the team that signs them. We need to draft our elite WR not try to sign him in FA.

    May I suggest that we both watch film on all the Edges I mentioned. That could change our opinions totally. Until we do, we're probably just talking past each other, and it doesn't really amount to much. Let's watch them, discuss each of them, and then see where we stand. Let's do the same thing with the WRs. In that way, we'll have a clearer understanding of who can help us more and who is really worth taking in the 1st round.
     
  13. MaximusD163

    MaximusD163 Well-Known Member

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    Definitely
     
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  14. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    We agree on that actually. We must have WR1, TE, and improve OL this offseason and find out whether Zach is FQB this year first and foremost, no question. The disagreement is that I feel we ALSO need to substantially improve our defense, starting at the edge spot, and start getting the balance and winning more games. Nothing is more important than developing Zach, true, but that should not be the only significant objective for this off-season, even if it is the main one.

    Let me rephrase if you don't like word tank: I don't want the Jets to be a laughing stock of NFL yet again, one of the worst teams again this year. I want to play meaningful games in December. Not just meaningful for QB development, but also at least be in the hunt for play-offs.

    We both agree here as well.
     
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  15. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    But do you take him straight up at 10 if say there is no good offers to trade down, and do you think he is a much better prospect for us that Garrett Wilson?
     
  16. MaximusD163

    MaximusD163 Well-Known Member

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    Wilson is the best pure receiver. All of the classic traits, speed, route running, vertical explosiveness, body control and ball skills. Is Burks a better prospect? I mean it’s hard to say, ultimately it will depend on what kind of role they would envision for Burks. I think for the Jets offense bringing in a really physical presence like Burks brings a missing skill set, while Wilson brings a more polished player. I don’t think there is a wrong answer, I think ultimately my preference is Burks but a big part of that is because they already have Elijah Moore on the roster.

    Then begs the question, are either receiver where you want to go with a top 10 pick? I can’t really answer that yet, without seeing free agency and the combine playing out. My inclination would be no, but not a hard no.
     
  17. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    There's no disagreement on the first point, either, as I've said all along we need to finally add a great Edge prospect in the draft. I"m not against drafting an Edge, I just think that WR has to take priority over Edge in this draft. Since we have Huff, Q. Williams, and JFM (and hopefully Lawson) to rush opposing QBs, I think we can afford to add a little lower-ranked Edge this year. We have more talent there than at WR. Davis may bounce back, but like Lawson, I'm not counting on it. Moore and Berrios are not nearly enough for our WR corps.

    Even if we were to somehow get Hutchinson, I don't think he's going to be that great in the NFL. I'd rather add the best WR we can who fits the need we have for size, speed, hands, and blocking ability to help Zach as much as possible.

    I don't want the Jets to be the laughing stock of the NFL again, either. I think building a great offense around Zach will do more to have the team playing meaningful games in December than adding a one of the best Edges in this draft, and adding a 2nd or 3rd tier WR who even then may take a year or two to develop. Zach needs help NOW. Most of the best teams in the NFL have great offenses and OK defenses.

    Thank you. I thought that we could reach a consensus and/or find middle ground to continue the discussion since we respect each other and each other's opinions. I look forward to continuing this discussion once we've had time to study the Edges and WRs.
     
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  18. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    It could mean that, but not necessarily. I agree that most of the time with a shorter WR, it probably does mean that, but it can be a very different story with a tall WR who can jump.

    It could be that the QB is throwing the ball up for grabs and/or under throws deep routes. Watch some video of Burks. He gets open consistently, yet he had a lot of contested catches because his QBs under threw the ball, he had to stop and wait for it or come back to the ball, and that gave time for a DB or two to close in on him.
     
  19. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely do. Watch video of him. He is very smooth, lines up all over the place (but mostly in the slot) and has some elusiveness and wiggle. Several have compared him with Deebo Samuel and think he's a perfect fit for our offense.
     
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  20. IIMeanDeanII

    IIMeanDeanII Well-Known Member

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    I just seen this thread. My two cents, for what it's worth.

    Garret Wilson - to me Is hands down the best receiver In this draft class. He is a pure WR. Strong routes, fast, tough. He gets off the LOS faster than anyone I've seen so far In college coming out. Most importantly, he's a consistent and dependable play maker. I've loved this kid since day one. He was very good when he arrived, he's elite now. IMO

    Chris Olave - I think this kid is a legit first rounder, legitimate prospect. I felt that he Is better than the stats showed this year. I think he is a phenomenal deep threat, can track the ball better than most, uses space extremely well, knows how to manipulate defenders. He is extremely intelligent with the position and he dominates zone schemes. I feel he is a little weak for my liking, I feel he doesn't fit any scheme, and I think his run blocking was a huge glare In his game considering the scheme OSU runs. I still love this kid.

    Jameson Williams - I'm shocked he dominated the way he did for Alabama. When he hit the transfer portal, I was bummed out, not because we were losing out at the WR position. No, I was bummed out because he was an amazing special team contribution for OSU. I didn't care much for his route running, I thought he was too much of a body catcher. Instead of using his hands primarily and instinctually. I can't deny the year he has for Alabama though. I still need to watch more on the kid (I've only watched 3 games so far) but I know I wasn't impressed when he was a buckeye. He could barely crack the lineup because of the phenomenal OSU WR starting and the depth Is insane. The rose bowl highlighted that a bit already. Personally, I wouldn't draft JW. Especially with the injury. I think it would be smart if he went back to school If I'm honest. Then again, can he put together another year like he just had? I'm not so sure. Tough break for the kid. I feel bad. I'm not sold though.

    Drake London - I think out of all the WR, this kids mindset will take him the farthest. The will to be great is there. The physical traits are there. The size is there. The production Is there. Fast(enough). Legit deep threat. Fantastic blocker. The injury sucks though but I have no doubt he will come back better than ever. I'm a big fan of this kid.

    David Bell - Great hands. Great routes. Great character. Great body control. Physical but not necessarily physically gifted. Breaking speed I don't like and just overall speed is concerning.

    Treylon Burks - Another WR that catches too many passes with his body, I just don't like that In an NFL receiver. I also think he lacks effort. However, he Is a big framed WR, very strong. Good blocker. Great athlete. A lot of speed for his size. I don't like that he has such a "diva" vibe about him when he plays the game. I also know he has disappeared In games I thought he would dominate, then dominates In games I thought he would get shut out. This kid confuses me more than any of the other top WR I've watched so far. He absolutely dominated Alabama, got smothered by the Bulldogs, and looked uninterested In playing against Mississippi State. He might be a stud, I'm not high on him for several reasons though. I think he will be a diva with lazy traits.

    Alec Pierce - I love this kid. I think he has a chance to be a consistent contributor and successful pro In the NFL. Very athletic, very strong, with a massive catch radius. He's fast, good YAC guy, breaks a lot of tackles as well. Very good blocker, I still think he could be an amazing TE as well If he put on a little weight. Very good In lanes, and has a deep presence about him as well. I do think he needs to work on his routes overall, gets a little to antsy at times when securing the catch. I'm just a fan of this kid though, hope he goes to a good situation. Would be a good mid-round guy to target.

    George Pickens - Is a talent. Injuries really cut his ability to showcase what he can really do, but, there Is enough tape there to consider this kid a steal in the mid-rounds. Maybe later, If lucky. If you haven't checked him out, start with the Sugar Bowl, then go from there. Great character, good kid, has a ton of talent. No joke. I like him as a first round talent, It's hard to put him there though with the ACL injury.

    I haven't got a chance to watch everyone yet, In the process. These guys I've watched a lot of so far.

    My top 5 rankings so far...

    1. Garret Wilson (easily)
    2. Drake London
    3. Chris Olave
    4. David Bell
    5. Jameson Williams (unpopular opinion)
     
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