Judging a QB.

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by laxin, Aug 14, 2013.

?

When judging a QB, what holds more weight?

  1. Team accomplishments

    40 vote(s)
    46.0%
  2. Personal accomplishments

    47 vote(s)
    54.0%
  1. laxin

    laxin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    5,248
    Likes Received:
    23
    I just wanted to get a sense of how fellow TGG members judge a QB.

    When judging a QB, what holds more weight- team accomplishments or personal accomplishments?


    Clearly this is a large question in regards to Sanchez, but its also a good discussion in terms of the NFL. For example- Drew Brees continues to set records, yet his team failed to even have a winning record. Or Joe Flacco who has recorded a playoff win each of his first 5 seasons in the NFL, nothing ever done in the NFL. Does that make him Elite?

    A big argument for Mark Sanchez is the teams success his first two years and his 4 playoff wins. Conversely, many argue that his personal performances do not warrant such praise.
     
  2. DanR

    DanR Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    Messages:
    750
    Likes Received:
    91
    I want a QB who will motivate his teammates to play hard.
     
  3. The 1985er

    The 1985er Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,070
    Likes Received:
    1,054
    I judge them on playoff wins
     
  4. b.reyes16

    b.reyes16 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Messages:
    2,299
    Likes Received:
    697
    I don't know if either holds more weight than the other, but when I look at Matt Ryan, I see a great quarterback. Yet, he only has a 1-4 playoff record. I don't see a great QB in Sanchez at the moment, but even he has a 4-2 playoff record. I think team accomplishments hold more weight when judging an entire career, but personal accomplishments may hold more weight in the here and now.
     
  5. laxin

    laxin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    5,248
    Likes Received:
    23
    :breakdance:
     
  6. laxin

    laxin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    5,248
    Likes Received:
    23
    That sounds fair, but I feel like you need to have a baseline of solid "personal accomplishments" for the team accomplishments to have true value.
     
  7. Jake

    Jake Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2004
    Messages:
    15,749
    Likes Received:
    2,361
    Its not just one or the other but both. The team has to have success to validate the QBs work, but he has to be a crucial part of that success to be considered a good QB. Nobody puts Brad Johnson or Dilfer on a pedestal because they werent instrumental but at the same time you can always knock guys like Marino and Fauts down a peg because they didnt get it done. A QB needs both or there will be critics. Thats why guys like Rodgers/Brees/Brady/Mannings are a cut above because they have titles and were crucial parts of those titles.

    Mark Sanchez, right now, has neither. He has zero rings and hasnt had any personal accomplishments other than a few nice drives late in games in 2010.
     
  8. Joe Willie White Shoes

    Joe Willie White Shoes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    Messages:
    8,145
    Likes Received:
    1,008
    The question is far too simplistic for a complicated analysis in a very complex sport. The answer is that it involves some of both, depending on the circumstances. Football is the ultimate team sport of the major sports and team success depends on many factors. While QB is the most important position on the team, a good QB cannot win without a supporting cast.

    As for Sanchez, his playoff record may be somewhat misleading, but his best playoff performances were in the AFC title games when other parts of the team let him and the team down and led to the losses. The run defense was the main culprit against the Steelers, but you can also blame Schotty's shitty play calling on the goal line and in having Sanchez pass down 17-0 late in the first half.

    The pass defense blew the Indy game. And to demonstrate how unimportant Revis really is/was to team success, he shut down Wayne in that game, but the other DBs were burned by Indy's deep receiving corps, demonstrating that an elite CB can only cover one man and passing teams send 4-5 out on patterns.
     
  9. TonyMaC

    TonyMaC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    2,923
    Likes Received:
    863
    oh you know not what you do by making this thread...

    it sounds non committal but the answer lies somewhere in between.

    on one hand a complimentary system and good cast that can execute what is necessary (the o-line holds, the receivers run their routes well and catch, the running backs find their gaps and burst through, etc) is key to a Quarterbacks success.

    on the other hand without the skills physically and between the ears that means nothing, and this is where QB's can be judged individually. What did they do to hold up THEIR end of the bargain? did they make the right read when necessary? do they have a good enough stance to make their throws in the most effective manner possible?

    but I guess what you're asking is if a team wins and the QB's stats aren't impressive does that go to the QB for being good or the team for masking mistakes.

    its all relative, and complex. generally if they do enough on a consistent basis to get their team in the right place to win then I'd say thats a good QB.

    there are caveats to this however, for instance a string of sloppy wins in the face of lackluster QB play show individual ability to make it work in the face of adversity but is troubling because the QB cannot be trusted to get a team to a positive place often.(think tebow)

    with Sanchez (thats who we're REALLY talking about right?) he's played well enough to make some big things happen in his time, but not consistently and not lately. sure he can hit the broad side of a barn and hit an open receiver but he's lost it mentally and often doesn't make the best decisions possible to get his team to victory. In fact he often hurts the team by doing the opposite of making the best decision possible,so theres an individual issue going on here.

    on the OTHER HAND as brought up ad nauseum but a certain somebody he was given no favors by way of having a newbie OC that didn't know what he was doing and an injury plagued set of players that were often mediocre at best.

    Like I said it was a combination of things. the point where one can reasonably be held responsible for a failure is when something is on an INDIVIDUAL to accomplish where outside factors mean little towards the goal one person must accomplish. thus the stupid decisions (forcing the ball when there isn't a play to make for example) are mostly all on the QB, bad scheme means next to nothing if a QB can't do the right thing anyhow. unideal circumstances(slow receivers getting good and covered in a badly scripted play for example) is something out of a QB's control that they can only contend with to the best of their ability, as is their responsibility.

    so... yeah I guess both matter, but if I had to say what I judge QBs on, its ability to execute positive plays in a consistent manner while dealing with adversity by finding the best alternative in a consistent manner. if you do this often, you're a good QB.

    Sanchez struggles with the latter too much for me to call him that.
     
  10. NYJalltheway

    NYJalltheway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2004
    Messages:
    12,341
    Likes Received:
    2,410
    I had a lot to say, but then Jake, and JWWS covered it pretty much completely.

    I don't have extreme stances on many things in sports, but one of them is that a QB should be based on the amount of rings he has. That is the biggest bowl of BS I've ever heard. It's a TEAM game, requiring a lot of players, and a lot of luck, and being on your A game at the right time. The question you asked is worded a little odd, so it's hard to really answer, but when judging a QB, how he does himself is more important. If it wasn't the case, then Mark would have been an elite QB his first two years...
     
    #10 NYJalltheway, Aug 15, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
  11. Jeti

    Jeti Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2012
    Messages:
    5,356
    Likes Received:
    1,111
    It's a mix of both

    If your perform well in the regular season and your team fails to get to the playoffs you could flip things to the D, the line or STs even coaching

    But if your performing poor as a QB it's tough for your team to succeed
     
  12. b.reyes16

    b.reyes16 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Messages:
    2,299
    Likes Received:
    697
    I can definitely agree with that.
     
  13. laxin

    laxin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    5,248
    Likes Received:
    23
    Believe me guys, I know its a mix of both, which is why I said which holds more weight when determining the overall performance or play of a QB.

    And I know there's a ton of variables and it is truly complex, but there isnt really a simple way to ask such a complex question.
     
    #13 laxin, Aug 15, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
  14. Jake

    Jake Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2004
    Messages:
    15,749
    Likes Received:
    2,361
    I cant decide which holds more weight. What good is having a surgical QB if you never win it all? There is no point, it was a waste. That being said, you cant crown a guy just for being on a championship roster, he has to be a crucial part of it. Nobody views Trent Dilfer as a good or great QB just cause he was along for the ride.
     
  15. Jeti

    Jeti Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2012
    Messages:
    5,356
    Likes Received:
    1,111
    Personal accomplishments

    Usually bad QB play hinders a team

    So if he's playing good you can't blame him
     
  16. azhar80

    azhar80 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2008
    Messages:
    798
    Likes Received:
    322
    In ANY team sport a player may look good but the team will often be mediocre, therefore the player had a minimal effect on the outcome on the game. Personal stats are minute compared to team accomplishments.
    Look at the Allen Iveresons, and the ARODS come quick to mind.

    The greats like MJ make the Luc Longley and Steve Kerrs into Champions.

    Like others mentioned there are so many variables to take into account. But the bottom line in any sport is Wins and Losses! Team accolades and accomplishments are legendary, personal accolades are great.
     
  17. nyjunc

    nyjunc 2008 TGG Bryan Cox "Most Argumentative" Award Winn

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2002
    Messages:
    53,044
    Likes Received:
    1,434
    This game is about winning, I couldn't care less about fantasy #s. if you put up great #s and don't win what do they mean? Give me a QB who makes plays when it matters and helps his team win.
     
  18. jilozzo

    jilozzo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2002
    Messages:
    8,263
    Likes Received:
    2,668
    ROAD playoff wins it is........
     
  19. LWC611

    LWC611 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    863
    Likes Received:
    23
    This.... Well said Junc
     
  20. The 1985er

    The 1985er Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,070
    Likes Received:
    1,054
    That can give a shit QB immunity.
     

Share This Page