It's 2007 all over...

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by klecko73, Oct 22, 2012.

  1. MURDR

    MURDR Banned

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    I faceplam any time someone makes this comparison. The only thing that Eli and Sanchez have in common is they both sucked their first three and a half years.

    Eli then broke out, but let's not pretend that this is the norm. Otherwise, every QB who played like shit for three and a half years would be heralded as the "next great one".
     
  2. FriendlyGiantsFan

    FriendlyGiantsFan New Member

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    I've got to disagree with you, respectfully. Sanchez came in to a much better situation than Eli. Sanchez had success early in his career with playoff wins on the road, but has seemingly regressed since then. Eli didn't have the success Sanchez had early on, but he didn't have as talented a team around him.

    I think that both QBs have been asked to do different things. Eli was asked to be a part of the Giants turning around their franchise. Sanchez was asked to take the Jets to the promised land (or so I believe, considering how close they had looked during their dominant stretch the season before). I think the bar for Sanchez may be a bit high, but I truly believe this is what the organization expects/wants from him. Despite this, I think that Mark was asked to do less than Eli early on in his career as he had a stellar defense and a very good running game to rely on.

    I think the issue is that while Eli has statistically improved every year, Sanchez appears to be back-pedaling. I think this is more a function of the success he had early on in his career as well as the decline in overall talent on the team.
     
  3. FriendlyGiantsFan

    FriendlyGiantsFan New Member

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    Amen to that. Eli's career arc is hardly typical. I know people like to point to Brees, but you can argue that his improvement came when expected (his 3rd year) and it coincided nicely with the Chargers actually getting some pass-catching talent.

    Eli's turnaround was dynamic and didn't really have much foreshadowing. The talent was obviously there all along, but besides that I don't think anyone was really expecting him to become THAT good at THAT time.
     
  4. FriendlyGiantsFan

    FriendlyGiantsFan New Member

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    Teams getting hot and going on unlikely championship runs does seem to be the norm lately. And hell yeah, it makes for some great football!
     
  5. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    I know certain Jets fans like to point to Eli Manning's improvement as if Sanchez will make the same climb, but there is an enormous, fundamental difference between the two situations.

    - The Giants have groomed/built around their young QB the right way, and the Jets the absolute wrong way.

    The Giants surrounded their Young QB with both talent and cohesion. They let him learn and eased him into a comfortable situation, and when it appeared like he was regressing, they responded properly by going all in with him trying to fix it FOR/WITH him.

    "You are having troubles cooperating with our very talented, yet outspoken TE Jeremy Shockey?" "Okay, don't worry we'll get rid of him for you."

    They also always sought out new weapons for him but let him pick and choose who he felt most comfortable with out of that group. They've drafted Sinorice Moss, Steve Smith, Mario Manningham, Ramses Barden, Hakeem Nicks, Jerrel Jernigan, Ramses Barden, Reuben Randle.. All WRs in the first 3 rounds in the Eli Manning Era. WOW At the same time though, the aren't married to these guys, it was about ELI.

    "You like throwing to this undrafted Victor Cruz guy more than our top draft picks Steve Smith/ Sinorice Moss??" "Okay no problem.."

    It was like buying him pairs and pairs of shoes and not worrying about which ones he picked to wear.

    The Jets both A) never sought or tried to acquire the proper weapons and B) lost track of those they should've kept for whatever reason. It's like the Tannenbaum/Rex figured just having a high draft pick at QB would be enough for success or something

    If the Giants Front Office had been running things for the Jets in the Sanchez era, they
    - never would've let the Offensive line get to this level.
    - would've made the tough decisions like keeping a Jerricho Cotchery or a Braylon Edwards (guys Sanchez had a nice rapport with) even if it meant sacrificing bigger names on defense/ losing a Santonio Holmes.
    - certainly would never have acquired a Tim Tebow
    -would have balanced their drafts between offense and defense much better.

    Of course it's not all about the people around him, Eli Manning is certainly a much better QB than Mark Sanchez. But to point out how he went from early struggles like Sanchez to where he is right now, as a sort of example of where Sanchez COULD be, is ignoring completely all of the hard work and sound patience that organization put in to get that success that the Jets haven't been and continue to not do....

    I fear that Mark Sanchez is already broken by this path. A good way to start to fix things is to start thinking about a different young QB, but ultimately to fix the path more than anything. But Mark Sanchez isn't going to turn into Eli Manning.

    The only similarities in the situations is that both struggled early on. One team responded correctly (Giants) and the other has and continues to respond destructively.(Jets)
     
    #65 BrowningNagle, Oct 23, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2012
  6. Louis

    Louis New Member

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    The acting like the Giants did some magically perfect handling of Eli is hysterically revisionist.
    The team Eli Manning walked into sucked ass. They haven't replaced the talent all that wonderfully over the years, no, but Sanchez walked into a team that was solidly talented in every area but QB.

    And they didn't "let" Manning pick and choose his own weapons. Someone like Sinorice Moss was a huge bust that can't even apparently make noise in the CFL now, if the stats that came up when I googled him are correct, but the Giants clung to him for years past when they should have cut ties with him, wasting a roster spot and time on trying to make him happen. They didn't throw Shockey out either -- they willingly enabled that douchebag for years until Shockey didn't want to be on the team anymore and forced his way out by picking public fights with their GM.

    The Giants OL was horrendous last season, far worse than anything the Jets have ever had in the Sanchez era, and only improved this year when they benched their worse version of Wayne Hunter, David Diehl.

    If you're blindly looking at sack totals or even the "official" hits on NFL.com, you're whiffing badly.

    You mean like how the Giants kept Steve Smith, Kevin Boss, etc., guys Eli had a good rapport with, and replaced them with draft picks, UDFAs, and rejects from other teams, expecting Manning to just roll with it and make other players better/work in their system instead of getting him a proven commodity at all?

    The Giants, if you want to go there, also forced one of the more mentally challenging systems for a QB in the NFL on their guy from day one, where as the Jets tried so desperately to protect Sanchez and dumb it down for him they even went that color coded "simple play" garbage. You can't even use the "Sanchez was stuck with a bad OC!" excuse because Eli's first OC couldn't even get another job in the NFL after the Giants fired him.
     
  7. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    Everything you said is completely nullified because the Giants Offense (sans Eli) is immensely talented. Their WR corps right now are perhaps the best in the NFL, Victor Cruz alone is absolutely elite. The talent they have on offense now compared to what they had when he took over as starter has increased drastically. Conversely, the talent on the Jets offense around Sanchez has taken a large step back, with him.

    You comments on their OL are a joke, as a core group, they are much much better than the Jets O Line in 2012. 2009, of course the Jets offensive line was much better, but thats my point - the Giants front office would've never let it become what it is now.

    Mark Sanchez would really flourish with that personnel for the Giants, obviously not to the level of Eli Manning - but he would look great in that offense, no less.

    Judging by your tone, I'm not sure if you are motivated by propping up Eli or tearing down Sanchez, so I just want to make it clear that I'm not tearing down Eli Manning by saying these things. He had a lot to do with the building of this offense and the emergence of Victor Cruz, Ahmad Bradshaw, Etc.... But it doesn't change the fact that he does have a lot more talent. My commentary was mostly praise on how that organization did a great job top to bottom with their QB - and the Jets have not.

    If your motivations are to tear down Sanchez, well then there's no arguing you because you would have to be beyond reason to think the Jets have done everything in their power to build around him- because they haven't. They've had a revolving door at WR/RB, downgraded their OL tremendously and overall done a god-awful job of cultivating their young QB.. Whether Sanchez is good or not, its no mistake to say the Jets organization wrote the book on how NOT to develop or build around a young QB.
     
  8. Cynic

    Cynic New Member

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    The difference is even when Eli struggled he always had great arm strength and physical tools. Sanchez is destined for mediocrity.
     
  9. nyjunc

    nyjunc 2008 TGG Bryan Cox "Most Argumentative" Award Winn

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    Eli's first full year starting he had:

    Tiki
    Plaxico
    Toomer
    Shockey
    Petitgout
    Diehl
    O'Hara
    Snee
    Kareem


    on D they had:

    Tuck
    Osi
    Strahan
    Pierce

    we had more talent on D, we didn't have more talent on O and he was shut out at home in his playoff game in 2005.
     
  10. Louis

    Louis New Member

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    I have no desire to prop Manning and I'm not out to shamelessly tear down Sanchez.

    I'm just beyond fed up with this stupidity of people clinging to a guy who is an extreme outlier as evidence their pipe dream may come true and the mythological hyping of the Giants' handling of said outlier, which wasn't, frankly, that good (and makes Manning turning it around even more weird), now being trotted out to potentially excuse why the pipe dream won't happen.

    They're better now because they benched one of the worst OL in the NFL after he (Diehl) got "hurt" in the second game. If he was still playing, the Jets would have a better OL.

    The Giants' OL was absolutely awful last season; Manning was the most pressured QB in the NFL and they had the league's worst running game because of how piss pot their run blocking was. They didn't give up more sacks/hits nor did they derail the Giants' offense from being generally productive because their QB stepped up huge.

    Guys like Hixon or Barden would be absolutely useless with Mark Sanchez as their QB, as they rarely get much separation and rely on their QB sticking the ball in tight spots and/or consistently reading the defense quickly/correctly. The Cowboy reject Bennett would likely be the same non-entity he was in Dallas with Mark as well. Cruz would still be solid, probably, but not at all close to what he's become either, given the routes he runs best and his strengths as a WR.

    Nicks would be closest Sanchez-proof guy they have, but he can't stay healthy.

    ... this isn't even touching how Mark isn't football smart enough to play in that system and have the responsibilities at the line the Giants put on their QB.
     
    #70 Louis, Oct 23, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2012
  11. nyjunc

    nyjunc 2008 TGG Bryan Cox "Most Argumentative" Award Winn

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    Eli has been in the same offense his entire carrer, he knows it inside and out which helps when playing w/ a variety of players but did you notice how much better Eli has been w/ Cruz? Cruz would be great w/ anyone and he has elevated Eli's play. If Sanchez had Eli's weapons he'd be flourishing, as it is in a new O w/ average to below average weapons he's been playing really well in recent weeks.
     
  12. Barcs

    Barcs Banned

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    All this goes to show you is that it's still a bit premature to give up on Sanchez. If Eli could take the Giants to the SB in 2007, Mark can do it this year, bottom line. Besides, Eli didn't really break out until 2011. He improved slowly over time. The coaches trusted him, despite the moron fans screaming for his head, just like the Jets coaches with Sanchez. They can see him turning it around. The hate for Sanchez is just over the top on here. Some people are pure trolls with that shit posting it in threads about defense and other stuff. They just can't resist spreading hatred. I don't understand that mentality. It's one thing to point out his flaws in a Mark Sanchez thread, but why bitch and moan like broken records in every single thread on here. It just gets old.
     
    #72 Barcs, Oct 23, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2012
  13. FriendlyGiantsFan

    FriendlyGiantsFan New Member

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    Tuck was a rookie and got hurt, Osi hadn't yet been the Osi that we know, and Strahan got hurt. The Jets OL and running game were easily better. The passing weapon situation (with Holmes and Edwards) is comparable.

    Tiki and Shockey were lockerroom issues and it's not a coincidence that the offense got better when they were both gone.

    Please don't try to say that Eli walked in to some kind of great situation; that just isn't true. It became great, and Eli is part of the reason why, but it wasn't when he got here.
     
  14. nyjunc

    nyjunc 2008 TGG Bryan Cox "Most Argumentative" Award Winn

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    But they had talent, right?

    run game easily better? Tiki had 1860 yds rushing, averaged 5.2 YPC then added another 54 recs for 530 yds. Our run game was great in '09 but our main back averaged 4.2 YPC on less carries- HUGE difference.

    Remember, through 4 games he had Chansi Stickey starting. we got Braylon after week 4 and wouldn't get Holmes for another year and he missed the first 4 games in his first year w/ us.


    Eli walked into a great situation, he was mentored by a great QB, he had the stability of a proven HC, he had a weapon Sanchez has never had(Tiki), he had boatloads of talent on O and a soplid foundation on D. Eli couldn't have walked into a much better situation. The only real issue he had was self inflicted w/ his refusing to go to SD and forcing the trade to bring extra pressure on himself that he wasn't ready to handle at that point but again he brought that upon himself.
     
  15. BleedgreenIII

    BleedgreenIII Member

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    The comparison of Sanchez & Eli is very apt (early careers)...I remember watching Eli in his first three years or so and saying this guy doesn’t have it in him...frankly looking back I think he looked worse but that doesn’t mean much now...as others have noted Eli is indeed a statistical anomaly when it comes to QB’s jumping from mediocre to Elite, he even has his own category being elite only when he needs to be...he has never forgotten how to throw ugly picks...

    But I don’t focus too much on Sanchez’s play because we have already seen what he can do...it’s a team game & always will be the QB is only one facet & IMO Sanchez is good enough...Peyton for all his stats won a ring with his run D & probably his worst stretch of play...as long as our D keeps improving together with special teams, Oline & running game we will have a shot...

    Would you rather Sanchez played like Matt Ryan (blow his load in the regular season) & exit in the first round (which I see happening again) or plays well when it matters (which he has done)...we focus too much on QB’s (in the regular season) even when history shows us you don’t need a great QB to win (Ask Parcell’s)....
     
  16. MURDR

    MURDR Banned

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    LOL at people saying Sanchez hasn't had talent around him.
     
  17. nyjunc

    nyjunc 2008 TGG Bryan Cox "Most Argumentative" Award Winn

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    who said that?
     
  18. Barcs

    Barcs Banned

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    When people say that they are referring to this year and the revolving door of receivers that he's had during his career. Out of all our receivers, Holmes has the longest tenure and he's hurt (under 2 years). Next is Kerley who's in his 2nd year. We don't have anybody elite on our offense this year besides Mangold and maybe DaBrickshaw. If you honestly don't think the talent around Mark has dropped off since 2009, I really don't know what to tell you. Our turnover is too high on this team. We replace primary receivers and running backs almost every year. Our oline has degraded, our WR core, and RB core. The only piece that's been somewhat consistent for Mark is Dustin Keller.
     
    #78 Barcs, Oct 24, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012

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