So everyone assumes Vilma can't fit into the 3-4 as an ILB. I understand the concerns if he is the focal ILB jamming the line and playing the run but if David Harris fits that role wouldn't Vilma play more pass protection and read and react? Harris crashing the line and Vilma following the play? It seems to me as if Harris will act almost like an extra lineman or nose tackle, occupying blockers and allowing Vilma free reign. I guess my point is shouldn't Harris's progression free up Vilma and allow him to play more effectively in the 3-4? Is this not a good thing and a reason to keep him? I'm confused!
I think that Vilma should be given a rover type of role which he would excel at , havoc all over the place. For all of Vilmas' 'small' characteristics , he has excellent speed and that should be utilized.
I'd rather we get someone else to be the focal ILB jamming the line to free up David Harris to be the one to make tackles. But I could be wrong --- IMO in a 3-4, both of the ILBs are supposed to be able to simultaneously crash the line AND make the tackle. Plus, I'm not really concerned about the pass because the JETS have not been able to stop the run in the last 10yrs. For me, it all gets back to trying to alter other players style & positions so that somehow, someway we can get VILMA in there at ILB in a 3-4. And the bottomline is that he just DOES NOT FIT. He is a great 4-3 MLB, but IMO, he will never be a functioning 3-4 ILB no matter who is next to him + no matter who plays NT and DE.
In a previous thread I said that If the ILB's had Vilma & Harris next to each other OR Harris ILB and Move Vilma to the outside they would be Unstoppable. But Of course the JETS and some of their fans (Not you per say) are too dumb to even think we could have 2 great LB's. Nope can't do that. Vilma is now expendable because Harris is the flavor of the Year. and don't get me wrong, I was preaching about Harris since the draft (I am a Michigan fan) and knew what he could do. My point is just that we have to start thinking outside the Box and for me that = Vilma & Harris in the Middle or Vilma to the Outside... JM2C
Vilma and Harris should work just fine together , until someone figures out how to stop them. We don't even run a pure-bred 34 anyway , so all this Vilma can't play in the 34 is moot anyway. Its more 43 than 34. I want to see what a healthy Vilma and Harris can do with a solid NT and speed rushing OLB/DE , then we will see if Vilma is surplus to requirements
I think that a guy with VIlma's telnt has to have a role in this defense. If Mangini is the defenseive genius we all though he was, he can find a way to make this work. We should run one of these hybrid style defenses. If Harris can do what he has done without Vilma playing, then I assume that if we plug Vilma into that equation, Harris will continue to perform as he did this season, with Vilma there as a 1-2 punch.
i think that would work very well, the problem is, that i don?t see Vilma Resign here, where he?s only the #2 LB on the Team, when he can be a top 5 LB in the entire League. As much as i love him, and think that he has a great heart, but in the end, it?s business, and he can get a better Contract, more advertising contracts, Going to Hawaii and all that stuff. If we want to have him here in 2009, we probably have to franchise him, next year and there?s a good chance, we need the Tag in the negotiations with Rhodes. I think we should deal him this offseason, and get at least some value back.
Disagree with that as he is playing in the largest NFL market by far. The way I see it, Harris is essentially another lineman making it a pseudo 4-3 which should allow Vilma free reign. I think we have to see what these two can do together before we let him go. And to have both crashing the line, who will cover the TEs and the middle zone. Someone has to stay back. More often than not, it will be the OLBs crashing the line with Harris.
Vilma is very good at zone coverage which adds more credence into NOT letting him go. I much prefer the idea of him as a rover than a cover 2 type LB
You can't put Vilma on the outside in a 3-4, plain and simple. I don't know how many times this point needs to be reiterated. I for one think we're in the wrong scheme, but unfortunately, we seem married to it. Vilma in the Derrick Brooks role in a 4-3 with Harris in the middle would be excellent. I think that Robertson and Moseley up the middle would make for an excellent interior pass rush. We could draft a pass rusher to pair with Ellis. It seems a lot more feasible than getting a monster nose tackle(they come along very rarely) and two playmaking linebackers. -X-
I am not questioning Vima's ability, but from a standpoint of the prototypical ILB in a 3-4, Vilma is about 15 pounds light. Vilma plays at about 230 and you really are looking for a guy aroun 245 for ILB in a 3-4. Just because the numbers argue, that still does not mean that Vilma will have a problem playing the position. I do think Vilma has the opportunity to do much better next to Harris than somebody else. The weight thing as well as Vilma falling off the map before Harris was put in, and coupling that with the injury and there you have the caveats.
...and I ask why? Is it his size? He's almost identical in size to Pittsburg stud James Harrison. Speed? He'd have plenty of speed off the edge to rush. Give me a few reasons NOT to move Vilma outside besides the statement above?
Pretty certain to say that there isn’t a subject that so divided fans more than whether to play Vilma in the 3-4 (ILB or OLB) or trade him. I myself have come to the realization that whether we like it not, agree with it or not, the CS is playing the 3-4D w/a hybrid mix of 4-3 here & there. But the core of the JET D is going to be players suited to playing a 3-4, period. I don’t feel that Vilma (as talented as he is) fits the D here, period. I tend to follow the concept that the players have to fit the system,…..not make the system fit the players (why the Patriots are so successful). Sorry guys, but I can’t seem to understand how having David Harris next to him would change his level of play as compared to when he had Eric Barton next to him. I respect those who want to think outside the box & try to find a place for Vilma either at ILB or OLB. I just don’t see it. Not sure where the hell someone thought Jet fans are too dumb to think we could have 2 great LBs. Yeah,…..thats me. I want 1 good LB only. “Please please please management, do everything in your power to keep us from getting 2 great LBs. God knows, no successful team ever had 2 great players at the LB position.”
I don't know. Vilma has proven to be a rotten blitzer in his 4 years here and he rarely makes a play behind the line of scrimmage. Frankly, I think he is overrated, and I wanted the Jets to draft him with their first pick when he came out. He basically goes side to side with excellent speed, but most of his tackles are 4 or 5 yards downfield. Play him with Harris and teams will still be able to isolate him. Wasn't he playing with a bigger linebacker before Harris came along? He just doesn't fit.
disagree 1. Point of Attack, harris meets the OL on another point, than a D-Lineman, that closes alleys for Vilma, and he has to go different pursuit-lanes, which gives the OL more time to get to him. 2. Vilma is quicker than Harris and reads at least as good as he does, that means, he will get the first block. unless we get that big body, that draws a double team every down, he won?t be better than what we saw the last two years in the running game. but i don?t think he did all that bad, he was our best ILB, but he?s just not as good in a 34 as he is in a 43, and i evend doubt he will be when we get that big body.
Because there's a difference between measurables and actual playing strengths. Vilma is definitely fast enough, and he's definitely not that much smaller than Harrison, but Harrison has shown an ability to shed blocks that is the whole reason WHY Vilma has struggled in the 3-4. As a pass rusher, Vilma could be easily neutralized by a back staying in for pass protection or simply being chipped by a tight end. If this weren't an issue, we wouldn't be having this discussion. There are plenty of fast, undersized linebackers like John Vilma, and you don't see any of them amongst the list of top 3-4 pass rushers. -X-
Except he's around 15 pounds lighter...and Harrison has a massive defensive line in front of him, and Harrison is ridiculously strong for his size, don't compare Vilma to Harrison. If you really think Vilma could play outside linebacker in a 3-4 scheme you truly know nothing about football.
Here is everything you need to know about the Vilma situation. 1: ILBs have to shed blocks from guards. OLBs have to shed blocks from tackles. Tackles are bigger than guards so if Vilma isn't great at shedding blocks from a smaller guy, why would he be better at shedding blocks from a bigger guy? 2: OLBs must have GOOD pass rush skills because they must win 1 on 1 matchups versus offensive tackles. VILMA is a poor pass rusher so he would not fit this role. He would be a better pass rusher on the inside where he can find openings in the pass protection. 3: OLBs simply don't get enough chances to use their skills aside from pass rushing. If the play goes to the opposite side of them, they rarely get to make a play. OLBs usually have half as many tackles as the ILBs. Vilma should be a tackling machine in our defense, so keep him on the inside where he has more chances to do what he does best. Size is only an issue because the bigger you are, the easier it is for you to shed blocks. Donnie Edwards is about the same size as Vilma and he excelled greatly as a 3-4 ILB. I think what it comes down to is having a big line that can tie up blockers at the line of scrimmage (Chargers NT - Jamal Williams). Pittsburgh's OLB Harrison at 6'0" 242 has somehow been able to do all the things that an OLB should do, but at his size but it is an extreme rarity. Pretty much all starting OLBs in the NFL are usually a bit taller plus at least 255. If Vilma lines up as the weakside ILB (side without the tight end) and Harris as the strongside, he will have less of a chance of meeting blockers and be able to chase down the ball carrier more freely. This position is more similar to what he did in the 4-3. Remember, in 2006, he played strongside ILB because he was better than Barton and ended up leading the team with over 100 tackles. So he certainly had a decrease in production from the previous season but I think with the right personel around him he can be a great player in our defense.
Excelent response and exactly what i was looking for. Though I think you may be slightly understating Vlima's pass rushing skills, most of this seem like it is viable. Thanks for the input. Still, I think all in all Vilma would be a better option than Thomas outside. Thomas is awful at tackeling in space and defending the pass. I would not mind trying JV outside if we can not get value for him.
