GAC Studs and Duds - Week 5 NYJ vs ATL 2021

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by GasedAndConfused, Oct 11, 2021.

  1. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    ok i'll bite. and what evidence to have to come to that conclusion?
     
  2. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    Besides the points on the board?
    It's actually worse than I thought...

    The Jets have had one of the worst opening quarter defenses in football through the first five weeks of 2021 (if not the worst).
    The Jets defense has been on the field for too long in the first quarter mainly because the unit can’t get itself off the field.

    Opposing drives against the Jets in the opening quarter have lasted an average of 8.4 plays, the highest rate in the NFL. 33.3% of opposing plays are converted into first downs against the Jets, the second highest rate behind Detroit. 61.5% of drives have resulted in points, the second highest rate in the NFL behind Cleveland. The average drive lasts 4:27, the highest rate in the league. The Jets allow 46.1 yards per drive, third highest behind Kansas City and Detroit.

    First Quarter Defense Is as Big of a Problem as First Quarter Offense for the Jets
    https://www.ganggreennation.com/202...problem-as-first-quarter-offense-for-the-jets
     
  3. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    ok but again where is the evidence it's scheme related as you said as opposed to player related?
     
  4. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    It can't be both?

    Putting a defensive end on Kyle Pitts in the red zone is a bad idea.
    Our defense allowed a season high 450 yds.... Ryan threw for 342yds. & 2 td's... with both Calvin Ridley and R. Gage out.
    Zero sacks on Ryan and little pressure.
    Pitts alone had 100+ yards.
    ATL converted 9 of 14 3rd downs... some were 3rd & long.

    Even Saleh said they got out-gamed.

    The Falcons were 1-3 going into this game... their only win was against the Giants... winning on a last second fg.

    Now it's your turn... show some evidence the defense was "gassed"...
     
  5. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    1) that's 1 play even if it was a bad call (but ti wasn't and i'll show you why in a second)
    2) what saleh said doesn't really matter. A good coach will always take the blame even if it's the players fault. The 1 correct thing he said is simply we didn't get enough plays. when our offense runs 8 plays on our 1st 3 drives combined to ATLs 32 plays on their 1st 3 drives. there is no way to scheme out of that.
    3) we got pressure. sometimes pressure doesn't equal sacks. ryan was getting the ball out fast. Also remember the D is our "weak" unit. with 5-6 starts injured and a ton of cheap low round pick players and waiver wire pickups. they are overperofmring. meanwhile our offense only has 1 injury (becton) who has a good backup in fant and a ton of high picks and big money guys like davis, moore, AVT, mcgovern, wilson, etc.
    4) Pitts is a freak athlete and a top 4 pick in the draft at TE. you expect him to put up numbers. he's a mismatch for anyone
    5) the converted 3rd downs are more on the players then the call. many were very long and players just whiffed.
    6) The opening drive defense was on the field for a long time 6:14 and 14 plays. they held ATL to a FG. was also a few BS penalties to help the drive stay alive. They needed the offense to put together a drive. even if the offense had done a 5 min drive for 3 points it's a tie game and the D is rested. instead we 3 and out in under 2 mins and ATL goes on to put together a 10 play 5:16 min drive for a TD. now it's 10-0 and the TOP is 11:30 to 1:58. not acceptable by the offense. and we are down 10. Defense really needs a break now but nope 3 and out in under 2 mins again. ATL goes 8 plays 3:59 and makes it 17-0. now the TOP is 15:29 to 3: 40. At this point they had the ball 4 times longer then us. Ok now we really need a drive, down 17-0 and the D is gassed. jets do 2 plays for 15 seconds and turn it over.

    Here is the pitts TD, it's actually a good call but mosley and JFM messed up

    [​IMG]

    Here you see mosley bite on the play action and come inside

    [​IMG]

    here you see him try to recover while reading the QBs eyes. things is pitts was way outside and he should have been cutting under that fast but he was beat to start on the PA and didn't try to recover well enough

    [​IMG]

    JFM was supposed to jam him at the line to give mosley time to help but completely whiffed

    in short for that play, if JFM jams him and holds him up which is pretty easy for a DE to do to a TE who he has 40lbs on, and mosley doesn't bite on the PA pitts never gets open. here is the tail end

    [​IMG]

    You can see only 2 people in routes. 1 is covered, mosley is late to pitts by a lot. The playcall was good. ryan is sacked on that play if not for JFM and mosley making big mistakes.

    Ok lets take a look at 3rd downs now

    1) 3rd an 9, D makes the stop. awful BS RTP penalty extends the drive
    2) 3rd and 4, D makes the stop, they go for it on 4th and 1. it's hat on a hat good play call, but quincy fucks up and covers the wrong hole.
    3) 3rd and 9, D makes the stop. they take a FG

    that's the 1st drive. D made 3 stops on 3 3rds downs. 1 the refs screwed us, 1 they went on 4th and quincy fucked up, and 1 they settled for a FG. on 2nd look at the all 22 quincy had a rough drive.

    drive 2

    1) 3rd and 1, good play call, doesn't fall for the idea it'll be a run. we go man cover with 1 blitzer. fail to get pressure fast enough and CB 26 gets beat. had the play covered if pressure gets their though

    that was the only 3rd down on the drive.l the biggest play was a 22 yard pass that was covered well but mosley left his zone to attack the QB and ryan throw it over his head to the wide open guy he should have been covering. that was on mosley

    drive 3

    1) 3rd and 1, defense plays well. good play call but ryan throws an amazing pass which is grabbed 1 handed in tight coverage and the refs tack on a BS RTP penalty for 15. thats a 53 yard play on the ejts where really nobody fucked up which is just brutal

    2) 3rd and 10 , good play call and we should have got a pick but 47 (huff) fucked up really bad on this play.

    So at this point we are down 17 points and there hasn't been bad playcalling on the defense at all. It's mostly been fuck ups by the LBers on 2nd review.

    So now your turn, show me how it was bad playcalling and not players fucking up and being on the field too much because my evidence in this thread is overwhelming
     
  6. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    So the argument shifted from "gassed" to dumb mistakes?

    You may have just made my argument... ;)
     
    #46 Acad23, Oct 15, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
  7. MoWilkBeast

    MoWilkBeast Well-Known Member

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    Is being gassed not likely to make a few more dumb mistakes happen? Players just not being as switched on and missing assignments. Have also seen it suggested that the JFM in coverage thing was a misalignment by the D as Atl had an eligible tackle in on the opposite side of the line who JFM should have covered leaving a LB to cover Pitts. They got switched around and didn't adjust to the change in personnel. I also think a number of the converted 3rd and longs were due to uncalled penalties. There was definitely a huge block in the back that went uncalled one game.
     
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  8. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    All of that analysis and it's still assumptions as to who should've done what. Fact of the matter is that JFM ended up on Pitts. They did this several times in the game with the ends so even if it was a mistake, it's ridiculous to put these 4-3 defensive ends in coverage.

    They dropped Huff into a very deep hook to curl zone as well on Hursts' touchdown as well.

    These aren't guys who should be doing that.
     
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  9. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    nice try but nope. I already proved it wasn't scheme. Gassed players make bad mental errors as well as physical ones. here is an article on it.
    https://drivn.today/blog/tired-brains-equal-poor-performances/

    mosley making mental errors is unlike him. it happens because he is gassed. he's one of the few who never gets plays off. He's played 100% of snaps in the past 4 games and 94% in the 1st game. a whopping 363 snaps to lead the team.

    I only proved my point further. so now you can be ignorant and double down and your wrong statements or you know be an adult and accept the evidence in front of you.
     
  10. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    yes I just posted an article explaining it but it's also common sense that anyone would have to be insane or just an idiot to deny it. We all know when we are physically tired we can't think as well. Now with all the evidence we get to see what kind of person @Acad23 is. If he's a reasonable adult and a good poster or just a wannabe know it all who wants to bash the wrong things with no idea what he's talking about
     
  11. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why you're making this personal. I respect your efforts to prove your point that the defense was "gassed" in the first half.
    Like I said at the start... if that's true, then that's a problem with conditioning and a severe knock on the players themselves.

    The Falcons offense was on the field as much as the Jets defense was... were they "gassed" as well?

    But I don't think being "gassed" was the (main) problem. Has a player or coach from the Jets said as much?
    Saleh did say they were out-coached... so there's that.

    At the end of the 1st quarter Adan Archuleta said... "what I'm seeing right now, the defense really hasn't shown up to play... and they haven't been able to stop Atlanta".

    Sure... fatigue plays into it... both mental and physical... but what I saw was a failure of scheme.
    For some reason the Jets chose a defensive plan that left the middle open for Ryan pick apart... as well as some questionable choices on personnel.

    I'm just an armchair Defensive Coordinator... but I've been watching games for longer than I care to admit.
    I'll leave with this... written after the Falcons molested our defense... which sums up my point better than I can.

    A lot is rightly being made out of the Jets early game offensive struggles, but some of this talk is obscuring that early game defense is just as much of an issue for the team. The Jets have had one of the worst opening quarter defenses in football through the first five weeks of 2021 (if not the worst).

    It’s easy to blame the offense’s inability to sustain a drive for the defense being on the field too long. However, the defense is fresh in the early stages of the game. The Jets defense has been on the field for too long in the first quarter mainly because the unit can’t get itself off the field. Opposing drives against the Jets in the opening quarter have lasted an average of 8.4 plays, the highest rate in the NFL. 33.3% of opposing plays are converted into first downs against the Jets, the second highest rate behind Detroit. 61.5% of drives have resulted in points, the second highest rate in the NFL behind Cleveland. The average drive lasts 4:27, the highest rate in the league. The Jets allow 46.1 yards per drive, third highest behind Kansas City and Detroit.

    Let’s compare these numbers to what takes place after the first quarter. The second, third, and fourth quarters (along with overtime) are where fatigue should really show in theory. However, the defense fares much better in the later stages of the game. Opposing drives average only 5.9 plays, tied for 13th lowest in the league. Only 22.7% of plays are converted into first downs, sixth best in the NFL. 40.9% of drives end in points, tied for 19th best. The average drive lasts 2:34, which is 12th best. The Jets only allow 28.9 yards per drive, sixth best.

    https://www.ganggreennation.com/202...problem-as-first-quarter-offense-for-the-jets
     
  12. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    not making it personal at all. Just trying to see where you are going with this since the evidence is overwhelming and every time I make a point you don't debate it, you ignore it and move the goalposts. Your comment about gassed players was bad and you know it but ignore that so it makes me thing why should I take the time to go over the plays from multiple angles and give you pictures with it to show my point instead of the "just trust me" stuff others pull if you won't consider the evidence. you really should actually debate my points instead of changing subjects. I'll debate your post as one should but you still owe counterpoints to the massive wad of evidence i spent hours making to post for you.

    As far as the offense being gassed it's really just a kind of. defense moves around more then the offense. the offense also knows the plays so players know when they can take plays off if they need to or sub someone out for a better player not in the play. we also lack depth at LBer due to injuries so they don't get breaks and a lot of the mental errors were mosley and quincy who don't get many plays off. especially mosley. As far as being gassed players simply will never say it. and good coaches will always blame themselves. Gase said it was the players not him, why didn't you believe him? PR speak is PR speak. saleh said the right thing but doens't mean it's true.

    also archuleta? lol most articles and commentators are just noise there. the game is better without them. outside of the manningcast none of the stuff is worth listening to. hell even rhonde said he got yelled at for saying cover 2 becuase his bosses says it's too confusing for others. it's dumb downed canned comments.

    Listen I get we are all just armchair DCs all i'm saying to make a blanket statement like ti was bad playcalling with no evidence is kinda crazy. It's the fan knee jerk reaction. thats why I paid for the all 22 so i could see if we just got outcalled or if the players didn't do their job. it was clear the playcalling was fine. even if archuleta is right and we just didn't show up to play, it would support my argument that it was the players not the scheme.

    The funny thing about your bold is that both are connected. offenses who control the ball help their defenses. offenses with big plays and 3 and outs don't. why do you think pete caroll slowed down his offense the 2nd half of last season. it was to help the defense. russel chucking bombs for 1 min drives and 50 yard TDs was killing the defense. thats why you need a run game. TOP and turnovers is usually what decides a winner in games. if you win those 2 stats you'll win the game like 99% of the time. we lead the league in turnovers and we are last in TOP thats on the offense.
     
  13. Jets79

    Jets79 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know…to me it’s all the same and it’s on both the O and the D.

    offense needs to get some dam first downs and not go three and out for their first 8 drives

    defense would be nice if they forced a three and out once in a while too

    they both need to play better

    Plain and simple
     
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  14. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    You said they were "gassed"... I said they were "outsmarted"... that's the debate.
    Then you immediately made it personal...
    I've shown stats & facts to show our defense is horrible in the 1st half. Who is doing the ignoring here?
    Show me any evidence that fatigue caused the defense to get rolled in the 1st half once again.
    Quote anybody on the team that has said as much.

    The Jets have been outscored in the first half 75-13. Yeah... the offense sucks... but so does the defense... at least in the first half of games.
    The defense can't get off the field... it's right there in the stats... it's not based on yours or mine interpretation.

    I'm sincere when I say that I appreciate the content & thoughtful comments you provide here on TGG. You're one of the guys here that I pay particular attention to and read & enjoy each of your posts... especially the all-22 breakdowns.

    You are trying to validate an off the cuff comment you made that I countered... and the stats confirm what I saw on the field.

    I don't think it's worth the amount of ink that's been spilled so far.
    Just admit you were wrong and we can move on... :rolleyes:


    Ulbrich has been arguably the Jets’ best coach so far this season, but his defensive game plan against the Falcons was puzzling, to say the least. John Franklin-Myers and Bryce Huff — two defensive ends — were left on an island in coverage on the Falcons’ two first half touchdown passes. Jamien Sherwood, meanwhile, was sent to blitz despite his strength in coverage. Ulbrich’s defense settled in and played well until the closing minutes of the fourth quarter, but it is tough to surmise what he was thinking early in the game. Whatever it was, it put the Jets in a hole too deep to dig out of.
    https://jetswire.usatoday.com/lists...-2021-nfl-london-games-takeaways-zach-wilson/
     
    #54 Acad23, Oct 16, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
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  15. Mogriffjr

    Mogriffjr Well-Known Member

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    They’ve done that drop DL in zone a few times this season and had success, falcons just were up on it. And the jets had good pressure rates, but the Falcons had a better gameplan to get the ball out quick with a vet QB who knew where to go with the ball.
     
  16. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    It was mentioned during the broadcast that the Jets defense is similar to what the Falcons run and what Matt Ryan has faced in practice for many years.

    But it was said by that dumbass know-nothing ex-defensive standout Adam Archuleta... so take it with a grain of salt... :confused:
     
  17. Mogriffjr

    Mogriffjr Well-Known Member

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    Lol Yeah Ullbrich was Falcons DC last year so he had a head up on what was coming
     
  18. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    Oh snap... I forgot he was the Falcons DC.

    Don't mention this to @GasedAndConfused ... it'll ruin his bye-week. :confused:
     
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  19. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    it's not personal at all. I made the comment about playing sports because you didn't understand and it seems you still don't what the toll of physical fatigue takes not just on the body but the mind too. Tired players are more prone to mental errors on top of not being able to physically perform as good. their awareness, play recognition, and decision making deteriorates.

    Your side was that the play calls were just bad especially on 3rd down. My side as that the players didn't execute which was most likely caused by being fatigued due to the offensive failures leaving them on the field way too much. I added plenty of evidence to support mine while you haven't been able to give any examples of your side at all. You tried 1 play which even if there is 1 bad play call it happens. that's not being out schemed or explaining the whole game but I proved that to be false.

    We are starting slow but you have to remember the scheme which we know works because GB and the niners both run it. The defense has a bend but don't break type scheme. the offense needs to control the ball to give them breaks or the FGs we let up start turning to TDs. the only thing the defense is doing bad is we aren't getting the splash plays. the strip sacks and the INTs. we need to generator more turnovers but again the D is the "weak" unit as we put our resources into the offense and helping our rookie QB so we all expected the D to be bad. they are overproducing.

    Stats are meaningless without context. your evidence is 1 beat writer? They are awful and you know it. I showed the actual coaches film on it. because huff and JFM messed up doesn't mean the scheme was bad. You are just being ignorant and ignoring mounds of evidence from actual sources like film and doctors and instead cherry picking 1 beat writer. it looks bad. I broke down every 3rd down in the 1st half. none of them were converted due to bad play calls.

    As far as being wrong I have no issues with it. I often correct myself when i go back and watch film. as I did with mosley saying he looked good during the game and same with Q but after watching the all 22s they made a lot of mistakes. Mosley on the big 22 yard pass, Q on a crucial 3rd down where he covered the wrong hole and the RB cut back to get a 1st. You can't blame coaches for that. I just enjoy watching film and share what I see and if people question it I go back and watch again to see if i'm wrong. The thing with you , is you made a decision and nothing will ever get you to go back and rethink it. That's on you not me. Either way there is nothing left to debate here. You can think what you want. If you aren't convinced by now you never will be
     
  20. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    Of course our inability to sustain clock affects the defense.
    But I still haven't seen any coaches or players or doctors blame fatigue for the lousy 1st half defense.
    You're the only one saying they were "gassed" and as such caused mental errors.

    Now you say "we all expected the D to be bad. they are overproducing."
    Huh? Who said the D was gonna be bad? Now you say they'e "overproducing"?

    Once gain..
    -Opposing drives against the Jets in the opening quarter have lasted an average of 8.4 plays, the highest rate in the NFL.
    -33.3% of opposing plays are converted into first downs against the Jets, the second highest rate behind Detroit.
    -61.5% of drives have resulted in points, the second highest rate in the NFL behind Cleveland.
    -The average drive lasts 4:27, the highest rate in the league.
    -The Jets allow 46.1 yards per drive, third highest behind Kansas City and Detroit.


    Saying the defense was "gassed" is your opinion... the bolded above is simply the facts.
    It might be the "bend don't break" scheme that's wearing out the defense to some degree... but it doesn't explain why they're better after half time.
    Having sustained offensive drives would help of course... it would keep our lousy defense off the field... :confused:

    What a great concept... keep our defense on the field with a "bend don't break" approach... giving the opponent more plays and our offense less.
    With the additional bonus of tiring out our defensive squad. Fucking brilliant... at least our offense looks well rested...;)
    We've been outscored 75-13 in the first half. Something ain't working. I doubt it's fatigue.

    There's a big problem with our 1st half defense... it wasn't only the London game.
    It's bad scheme and bad play... but it ain't fatigue.
    Show me the players with their hands on their knees gasping for air.

    It's a bad defensive call to put a d-lineman on a tight end/receiver.
    I can say that with certainty because Atlanta scored 2 touchdowns when we did just that.
    Would it work better if AVT of Huff were well rested?

    You said they were "gassed"... I said they were "out smarted"... that's the debate.
    You contend that the defense was too tired to perform their job properly.
    I say the players and coaches were out smarted.
    Everything you've posted leans to my opinion... not yours.

    Congratulations...you've managed to back-pedal yourself into making the argument for me... :cool:
     

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