Fire Joe Douglas 2023-24 Edition

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by HomeoftheJets, Nov 19, 2023.

  1. Jets OG fan

    Jets OG fan Well-Known Member

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    Joe Douglas isn't going anywhere. Aaron Rodgers believes in JD and Saleh and we all know he has the most influence in this situation. They will both get one last attempt next year with Rodgers at the helm. If it fails, they are gone.

    Firing them after a year that ended due to major injury is not a good plan, you have to let them see it through, as they are a big reason why Rodgers chose the Jets. The narrative would be much different, had Rodgers been playing.

    People angry at the McDonald pick are being irrational. Dude is going to be good. There wasn't anybody the Jets could have taken there that would immediately impact the offense, aside from JSN, and that was before Corey Davis quit on the team.
     
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  2. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    Based on what exactly? Rodgers didn’t exactly have a lot of options. The Titans weren’t interested and I didn’t hear of any other team courting him other than the Jets.

    Rodgers desired this situation because it was really the only option for him and he also got to come here and watch the entire organization fawn over him.

    I don’t really blame JD for taking a swing with Rodgers though. I blame him for a lot of his other roster mistakes though.
     
  3. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    Exactly!!! Just because we bring in a new GM and new HC, does not mean we have to rebuild right away. Why can't a GM and a coach pick up where JD/Saleh left off but do it better? Build a good line for a change, get another WR, and revamp offensive coaching, while still maintaining some variation of WCO. He can even keep Ulbrich for defense to have continuity there. Otherwise like you said, what if Rodgers gets hurt again? We will have Hack, the worst OC in the NFL, calling plays? And can we even trust JD to build the line or improve offense? There are a lot of questions if JD/Saleh stay, maybe even more so than if they go and we get a new regime. It takes balls to do, but Woody doesn't have many years left, he might just do it.

    As of right now, I would agree, Woody wouldn't fire JD. But what if we lose next 3 games - next 5/6 games? What if we end up with 4-6 wins on the year? What if we go 1-9 or 0-10 to end the season? These are not unrealistic possibilities. If we are picking in top 5 and are a laughing stock again, I am not sure sure JD is safe, nor should he be.

    It's clear now (and for a lot of us even before) the problem wasn't just Rodgers getting hurt. There are issues all over the place on offense. Depending how the rest of the season goes Woody may have no choice but let JD walk. We have been embarrassed long enough, now beating our own record for longest streak in all NA sports not making play-offs. 4 years and no play-offs and finishing bottom 5 for the 3d time in his 4 year stay to me is unacceptable to keep the current regime. Rodgers injury or not.
     
    #203 Borat, Nov 27, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2023
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  4. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    A GM can, a coach typically can't. they all have their own systems and want the players to run it and their way of doing things. what comes along with that is players adjusting or not being able to run the system. usually creates a big roster turnover.

    It's hard to fairly judge a GM if the players can't stay healthy. After his 1st 2 offseasons and the lawson injury and bectons injury and such he said he's going to focus on players who don't get hurt. he went and signed a top OG who hadn't missed a game in 4 seasons. He brought in a HOF QB who barely missed any games in a 15 year career (16 games in 15 years). he got the players for hacketts system and the OC his QB wanted. (look at how hackett ran the offense in GB, 2 RBs, 1 top WR and a big WR, run to set up the pass, QB has option to audible at the line based on D, aaron had his 4th and 5th lowest attempts in 15 years under hackett)

    A GMs job is to hire a coach and give him what he wants to run his system. The HC picks the rest of the staff and the schemes and gameplans. You can say it was a mistake to hire saleh, i'm on the fence with him ATM. hackett was a mistake but understandable to get rodgers and again the choice of OC is on saleh. He brought in the players the coaches wanted. Saleh/MLF wanted zach over darnold. MLF wanted breece. Saleh wanted sauce and JJ. etc. I can't really blame JD, but the CS outside of ulbrich has to take a lot of the blame and the rest is really just bad luck.
     
  5. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    There were plenty of specific mistakes, we talked about already, but at the end of the day he hired coaches too, and injury excuses can only go so far. If we do end up bottom 5 for the 3d time in 4 years (and last year's collapse not too much better), it's time to try something new.
     
  6. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    there is a difference between an excuse and an explanation. explaining why something is the way it is, isn't an excuse.
    "An excuse is designed to avoid or alleviate guilt or negative judgment, while an explanation is offered as fact or clarification of why something occurred or is the way it is."

    people use "excuse" because they are looking to place blame and any reasonable explanation is shot down as an "excuse". it's just lazy. You do have to account for injuries to be fair to any player or coach or GM. I mean look at burrow, he was bad the 1st month because he was still recovering from an injury. then after that he was back to his great self. until another injury came along and now he's out. saying burrow isn't playing well because he's hurt is a explanation, not an excuse. excuses are usually rooted in BS such as "my dog ate my homework" where an explanation would be "I had a family emergency and didn't have time to do my homework"
     
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  7. tomdeb

    tomdeb Well-Known Member

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    The jets really need another wide receiver and that should be high in the draft in 2024. I thought $44M was ridiculous for Lazard when it was announced last year and I still do. The jets need a WR, lots of help on OL, a developmental QB, ILB help and a safety. That is why that McDonald pick was so bad in 2023. These problem were all visible last year too when Douglas wasted that #1 pick, just like the wasted picks on becton and zach.,.
     
  8. tomdeb

    tomdeb Well-Known Member

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    He should adopt the Todd Bowles excuse which he deadpanned after every jets loss--"We'll have to watch the tape on that." :D
     
  9. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    As I already explained in our other discussions, the offense was not good enough before the injuries because JD fucked up on multiple fronts. And he could have reduced probabilities of these injuries if he he built a better OLine to begin with, including the one to Rodgers. Injuries beget injuries - see the video I linked in OLine thread from Dr Chao. And this is not just me saying that, this is a doctor who specializes in injury risk analysis.

    But, be it as it may, when something happens again and again, excuses or explanation don't even matter. Just like they yanked Zach or Carter or any other player, even though there are plenty of excuses/explanations - they should be yanked themselves, baring a miracle turnaround. It's been 4 years, GAC. Record stinks, and there were plenty of mistakes. Enough is enough. If they can't turn this around and end up bottom 5 again and again and again, they gotta go.
     
  10. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure this is true at all. Look at Jax. As soon as they brought good coach in, immediately made play-offs, won a division, and a play-off game. Heck, look at Giants last year. Won the play-off game. When was the last time we did - 2010? There are many examples where a coach comes in and immediately improves the program. We have the defense, and I would love for Saleh to be a DC, but if not, we can get a good DC, even Ulbrich seems OK. In one year a great offensive minded guy with good D already in place can turn this around. Especially with a GM who can recognize OLine talent. With Hack calling plays I am now not even sure Rodgers can be good. And if he is hurt again? This is a Russian Roulette we are playing here to keep this current staff.
     
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  11. SOJAZ

    SOJAZ Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't agree more... bith need to go.. I posted their records and they are abysmal and irrespective of excuses or and explaination, they get paid tp WIN FBG. They do not and that needs to change... If the panthers fired their HC today for performance why this HC and OC and GM remain is beyond me.

    As JoeB rant stats enough is enough...
     
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  12. Kronoking

    Kronoking Well-Known Member

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    I'm aware of how cap money works, and without losing sight of the fact that in the end it doesn't just all amount to a play money. I'm sure OBJ does on his end too. Again, you are attempting to twist standard free agency practices into portraying something it didn't. There is no proof there that OBJ wanted to or even would have come here instead of Baltimore with all things being equal. Regardless how easy you believe it would have otherwise been to make that fit work into off-season roster plan (cutting Davis when he's the arguably better WR asset to have at that point beyond name value is an entirely different debate of course). All you have there is confirmation that OBJ wanted us to create a bidding war offer he could then obviously take back to Baltimore. Which was even noted in the tweet that you could follow the surrounding logic from there to make such as a most logical conclusion.

    You are also reaching pretty hard there btw to just lump OBJ in with Lazard as if they are a 1:1 equal as far as him being Rodgers' likely "buddy". Or as if anybody should be concluding that they would have been receiving the same amount demand push coming out of Rodgers on what WR were were going to sign. With again, the understandably limited amount of money/resources they were going to pump into WR with other areas of ongoing need to still be considered in the bigger picture.

    And no, this isn't really a confrontation thing. Just pointing out in passing that your clearly fanboy driven and defensive take on Rodgers' own contribution in all this is equally as flawed and shallow as you apparent need to just lay an overkill amount of the blame at the feet of JD. Who for all his flaws took this team into last winter in a more promising state then this franchise has seen in decades. Where we could of literally grabbed any one of the better veteran QB backups that signed elsewhere for one year peanut deals (Winston, Minshew, Brissett, Dalton, ectt) after making a legit OC hire, gone through the motions the rest of the way, and came out the other side with an actual real chance to push the rebuilding grind forward. But instead Rodgers happened.....and top to bottom it all went to WTF are they doing crap to anybody who refused to get drunk on the koolaid of that not just amounting to the new most Only The Jets thing to ever happen.

    "PROVE" to me that i can lay the blame for the decision to bring Rodgers in at JD's feet, instead of it being Woody driven first and foremost, and i'll be right there with you. Until then and given the covid factor in the timeline and I think valuing JD's success and failures as a whole is a lot muddier then people want to make it out to be. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing him fired but there were more villians to this 2023 story then just him. And the smoke certainly points to your hero playing no small role in that.
     
    #212 Kronoking, Nov 27, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2023
  13. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    It looks like you are not aware at all how CAP works, since you thought we could not fit him when we could, but that aside even if a report was to create a bidding war, if Rodgers mandated it, then outbid Baltimore. I mean Rodgers wanted him and he calls the shots, right? He is the GM of the team, correct? So match the offer, and go from there, no? I mean usually asking to match means they will come to you if you match, but even if not, if the GM Rodgers mandated it - do it? The whole argument just makes no sense. Anyway, as expected you failed to show he mandated anything, so in the absence of that it's an empty counterargument and the blame lies at the feet of a person whose actual job it is to sign players. Not sure why this is hard to understand.
     
  14. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    how can you base that on 4 snaps though?
    and I understand the doctors point but doctors also say smoking causes cancer, yet people who never smoked still get it and others who smoked forever don't. they call it "practicing medicine" because it can never be an exact science. it's more of a probability. it's also why other suffer side effects while some don't. I'm sure the is some validity to his theory, but the thing is you are trying to prove a point so you are searching for something to validate it. It's also kinda his schtick. he jsut taks about all the ways players could be injured cause it makes him money. it makes sense the longer they block and the longer they play the more risk you have. all teams suffer the same. but if it was 100% true the scrambling Qbs would lose the most lineman and jacksons lines have been mostly healthy as have murrays. no evidence supports it. the jets defense has been on the field 60 minutes more (played a whole game more then the offense) yet suffered less injuries. Tired players are more likely to be injured, doesn't mean they will, just means the chances increase when you are tired. sometimes people look for reasons to explain bad luck because they don't like to believe things are not in someones control but sometimes thats just how it goes. we've been the most injured team over the past 4 years. the players have changed, the coaches changed, the field changed this year, the training staff changed nothing is the same yet still more random injuries. even teams against us seem to suffer big injuries. the niners season a couple years back was wiped out to a 6-10 year due to losing like a dozen players in back to back weeks on our field. shit happens.
     
  15. Kronoking

    Kronoking Well-Known Member

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    I actually don't think *you* fully understand how the cap works. Or player salary considerations in general. Hence why your reply keeps trying to put words in my mouth that were never said.

    - Being capable of doing something in itself isn't the same thing as such an act (again, on top of already having signed Lazard) adding up to make much practical sense in the grander scheme of things. Guessing your not wanting to see or acknowledge that is playing into your inability to make sense of it though.

    - I think it's a pretty safe bet and the common sense factors point to Rodgers being the most reasonable choice to point the finger at for making that call to bring in Lazard, yes.
     
  16. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    Shit happens more when you don't have good starting LT to begin with and no depth. But yes, increasing probability of injuries is a terrible thing. Think about the analogy you gave. Say, someone smokes like chimney and then gets cancer, are you going to say he is just unlucky? I say we try someone next who does not smoke and see if they can do better in the next 4 years.
     
  17. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    they had an easy division though. they won at 9-8. the rest of their division went 14-35 thats a huge advantage. they would have been 3rd in our division. they won 2 more games then we did against a soft schedule in a soft division. thats why context is important.

    also when they fired the HC it was only the head coach. they didn't clean house and the HC was hated in the locker room, kicked a player, left the team behind to finger some college chicks butt in a bar among other things. they brought in a winning coach who was willing to keep and coach with the existing staff. so the change was minimal. The GM also stayed. in your case we would have to fire saleh only, keep hackett and ulbrich and JD. thats what the jags did.
     
  18. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    More than a GM of the team whose job it is to sign players? The problem is what you call common sense is not common at all but a conspiracy theory. What makes sense is that Rodgers would recommend Lazard and OBJ, based on his experience, and GM would make the ultimate call.

    But let me understand the degree of the conspiracy here. I am going to assume for a second that you understand how CAP works and that we could have dropped Davis's contract, that Cook was not in the picture, etc...

    Did Rodgers mandate or merely recommended Lazard? Did he mandate or recommend OBJ?
     
  19. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    Rodgers could be better than Trevor in year 2. Plus our defense is pretty good, and we don't need to touch that part, could keep Ulbrich. And I don't even mind keeping Hack either to help design plays like he did in GB, he seemed fine in that role. But not as a play caller. Let's see how the rest of the year goes. If we see a drastic turnaround, even without making play-offs, maybe there is hope. But if not... I would make the switch and hope Woody/Chris don't fuck it up again.
     
  20. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    no freaking way Hackett is allowed back. I will be furious
     

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