What about YOUR thoughts, Major? As a thread-starter, I think you have a duty to lay out something provocative for the masses.
Absolutely, With stout additions we have gotten bigger and more flexible in the middle. I think Haynes will turn out to be a steal in free agency. With multiple rotation packages in place, We have enough talent at the DE position to take the advantage on the edge.
We don't have an appropriate lineman for a 3-4 anywhere on the defensive line right now. Ellis and Coleman are small at the ends and Coleman lacks talent. D-Rob is way small at NT and he does not have the skill set for the position. The defensive line will share responsibility with the offensive line as the two units preventing the Jets rom moving forward until all 3 positions are filled with capable players or the Jets revert to a 4-3.
If I had one real gripe about the "Tangini Plan" it is the way they are retooling the defense. I give them high marks for Revis and Harris but the crap they brought in here to "improve" our defensive front along with the numerous players still here not suited for the 3-4 have been disappointing to say the least. Coleman, Wadsworth, Hamilton, Haynes, VonOllhofen = Crap Bowens, Vilma, Roberston and Ellis are not suited for the 3-4 and become very average players in this system. I didnt expect an overnight transformation, but I expected more than this.
You mostly play what you are given unless better options emerge. The reason the Jets are where they are on the defensive line right now is a combination of probably mistaken assumptions, along with the fact that their talent was very suboptimal for a 3-4 when Tannenbaum and Mangini took over. Here are the mistaken assumptions: 1. Shaun Ellis would be a good 3-4 DE. There was nothing in his history to suggest that this was true. In fact, when the Jets tried to move him to 4-3 DT he washed out there and had to be moved back to 4-3 DE. Yes, he's bigger than the typical 4-3 DE, no he's not as big as the typical 3-4 DE and he really does not have the skills to play DE in 3-4 particularly well. 2. Dewayne Robertson could be made into a 3-4 NT. Similar situation to Ellis. Not big enough to play NT and not temperamentally suited to being a space occupier as opposed to a driving inside force. The skills just are not there to be a good NT and in that situation the lack of size is a major problem. 3. Jonathan Vilma would be a force as an inside linebacker in a 3-4, with his speed and lateral quickness making up for a lack of size and having to deal with more interference from offensive linemen. This was an iffy proposition from day 1 and its turning into an elephant in the room with a years experience in the system and still no indication that he can be a good inside linebacker in a system that typically has wanted 245-250 lbers who can hold their ground when confronted by a guard released into the box. That's 3 really huge assumptions and so far the Jets appear to be 0-3. None of those 3 players, who are the 3 potential star caliber players in the Jets front 7, are making enough of an impact to suggest that the Jets 3-4 will be anything more than a mediocre unit. What the Jets need to do pretty quickly is either recalibrate into a defense that plays a lot of 4-3 or move on and acquire players who will play well in their 3-4.
Are ya sure about that... I mean he was only drafted to play 3-4 DE by Parcells, who seems to draft "this guy" everywhere he goes (Prime examples Ellis / Abraham NYJ, Spears / Ware DAL) you might want to re-think that first part of your argument. If there is any Defense he's built for, it's a 3-4. It's what he was drafted for. Having played under Duh Herm, he got lazy. I expect that this year he should have a better year, but we'll need someone else along the front 3 to step up, and we'll also need our DT/NG combo of what looks like will be Robertson/Pouha to command double teams on almost every play in order for switching to a 3-4 to work. Ellis
I don't think that your point about Shaun Ellis is correct. Don't blame the formation. Blame Ellis. He was drafted by Parcells with the 3-4 in mind. He had 8.5 sacks as a rookie which is great for a 3-4 end. Out of his 7 seasons, he has had 3 great season (2000, 2003, 2004). The other four have been incredibly mediocre. We Jet fans have been overrating Ellis as a 3-4 end but in whole as a player. Ellis is three years removed from a good season now. If he doesn't do well this season we need to start looking else where.
I think you are simplifying things a bit too much here. There a lot of things that go into playing these positions. Quickness, first step, intelligence/reads, leverage, formation, technique. You cannot just break it down to size for the position and list weight. Although this does have some bearing, it is far from the entire story. I think D-Rob and Ellis can handle their own, we also have to wait and see how Mangini uses them. We may see some more stunts and "gap jumps" this year. These guys have another year in the system and understand it better. Last year it was tough to throw in a lot of wrinkles and specialized formations because they still were figuring out the base sets. Vilma is however a question mark. We will see how he adapts this year. I think he is better suited at OLB, but he does not blitz incredibly well and if he is not in the middle we cannot utilize his best assett, his reads and intelligence.
I'm sorry but I don't really see where Ellis is that undersized, or Coleman for that matter. Coleman - 6'5", 295 Ellis - 6'5", 290 Other 3-4 ends Bryant Young - 6'3", 305 Marques Douglas - 6'2", 292 Ty Warren - 6'5", 300 Richard Seymour - 6'6", 310 Matt Roth - 6'4", 272 Jason Taylor - 6'6", 255 Simon Fraser - 6'6", 300 Trevor Pryce - 6'6", 285 Aaron Smith - 6'6", 298 Brett Keisel - 6'5", 285 Luis Castillo - 6'3", 290 Igor Olshansky - 6'6", 309 I mean you can make the case that they're SLIGHTLY undersized, but it's nothing detromental. Not every 3-4 end is 6'4", 340 like Haloti Ngata. Guys like Trevor Pryce, Luis Castillo, Brett Keisel, etc. make their money with their strength and first step. And as stated before, it's not all about size, and I think that players have different capabilities based on what they're taught. Now that we actually have a defensive line coach in, that has specialties other then pass rushing (which is all Denny Marcin is really good for), they'll be able to learn better techniques in the 3-4.
1. Ellis and Coleman, and even Kimo a few years ago, are built well and have experience in the 3-4. 2. Robertson is not a long term answer at NT, and never will be. He should be in the DE rotation, but with our lack of a true NT (unless Pouha makes huge strides) put him there by default. Not a perfect fit, but he's a solid, wide body in the middle, if not suited perfectly for the position. 3. IF, and that's a bug IF, our front 3 can handle their front 5 (like a funtional 3-4 should), Vilma will flourish. On top of that, Bryan Thomas could very well be poised for his most productive season as far as sacks go. And they brought in 3-4 decent vets to push our STARTERS at OLB for playing time on passing downs.
Do we? No. Kimo, Ellis, Rhodes, Revis and Thomas are suited for the 3-4. Vilma, Barton, Hobson, and Dyson for the base 4-3. Robertson and E. Coleman for the Cover 2. Harris may be Vilma's replacement and we could see a trade if "things don't pan out". We are probably 2 years away from being real contenders.
I think alot of people will be pleasantly surprised with the d-line. Coleman will be a nice addition imo. I hope Haynes makes the squad.
I agree with all of this. Last year was a change to this team. Now, with a year experience, I think the players will be better prepared for this season, especially Vilma who says he has worked hard in the off-season to correct his errors.
Traditionally, yes, but Miami lines up in so many different fronts, it's hard to classify Taylor as an OLB, or a defensive end. I understand he doesn't do the job of occupying blockers like Ellis and Coleman will, but he does play some end in Miami's fronts.
DE's: This is the most lacking position on the team. Ellis was indeed drafted to play in the 3-4, but at this stage of his career appears worn down and ineffective. Coleman could be one player we can turn to long term...he at least looks able to hold up in the running game and get alittle push against the pass. You can't totally fault the FO for this positional drought...they've signed many potential suitors of many different backgrounds..but 3-4 DE is simply a difficult position to fill long term. DT/NT: I've said it before and I'll continue to say it: D rob can and will be the long term NT of this team.And I'll fight it till the death. Why? the proof is on film. Sure, he is a better suit for a 4-3 1 gap, or 3-4 DE for that matter....but his compact powerful build along w/ his quick first step allow him to explode into center's/guards which leads to double teams, penetration and disruption. Mangini has been on record many times stating that he likes D rob at NT...and in this case..I believe him. What we need behind D rob is a "Change of pace" type guy. Someone w/ the traditional 3-4 NT build. This will make D rob that much more effective w/ his speed and power. Pouha could be the answer but that remains to be seen.
I agree with Kurt.... and I have read, and may somewaht agree/wait and see regarding the 3-4 NT spot. The NFL formula is to have a big beast that cannot be moved. Mangini seems to be trying something new.... going with 300 pound NT's that are quick. Quick enough to get the first step on the opposing center with speed and techique, if the center gets off balance, he's toast. That can really disrupt things on the offense. Mangini is creative, and I'm glad of that. It's a copy cat league, until a coach finds out a new, better twist on how to improve a defense. Mangini has said as much.... give away some size, but compensate with speed and technique. If those first two steps DRob and Pouha have are fast enough to get the center on his heels, the whole play blows up. Mangini has been talking about this, in uncharacteristic fashion, all we have to do is listen to what he's saying. Will it work? It seems like it was working in the second half of last year, and it looks to me like it's still working this year. I read where Mangini is in the middle of redefining what a 3-4 NT should be. Wish I had that link....
