there were more accounts of it last night on NFL Network, which seemed to back off of it today. but I still think it is unreasonable to assume Mangini wasn't part of the decision making process and was unaware of Favre's style of play, meaning his risk-taking isn't a dire issue as you claim it to be with the coaching staff.
Originally Posted by johnny And the same can be said about the anti-Pennington crowd who love this deal. Hey it's not that the deal in terms of compensation. An escalating, conditional fourth round pick is not a bad deal for Favre. However, those that have pointed out possible issues of concern with the deal getting Favre - waffling, commitment to football, dissappointment (with the Jets being his fourth choice), recent history (save 2007) should be afforded that opinion. Of course, if you believe that Pennington is the worst QB in the history of the NFL (like many here seem to) you are going to love this deal. See I have no problem with this position. However, I do wonder about the contingent that in my opinion show an almost fantical hatred for Pennington. It's as if the Jets were this SB team that somehow Pennington single-handedly stopped from getting there. Also, (a big hypothetical here) if the Jets were happen to go the playoffs and Favre plays as poorly as he did against the Giants and the Jets lose or Favre can't lead the Jets to the playoffs at all I bet that Favre will get a free-ride from the anti-Pennington crowd where you know the same wouldn't be said in Pennington's case.
My position which I stated was Chad should have been cut in the off season and Clemens given the chance to start from day 1 much like the Packers are doing with Rodgers. Tannenbaum and Mangini decided to hold a QB competition instead and apparently were none to pleased with either QB. Hence the move they made to get Favre. Pennington is not a terrible QB he is a QB who with an adequate arm was very good but sadly has had two shoulder injuries and now has a bad arm. In spite of that he can be effective but is highly limited and against good defenses is usually badly broken down. Favre did play badly against the Giants, so did Brady and the Giants did win the SB and Favre did take the Packers to the finals something I don't believe Pennington can do.
Johnny, Pennington is gone. Let it go. Imo you don't want to make that bet. The ones giving QB's free rides around here are not the ones who have been unhappy with Chad.
I think it is something that on both sides of the argument will always be conjecture, but my sense of that finals game was that the whole Packer team sort of psyched themselves out of the game. They bought into the notion that you needed to be all hyped up to deal with the cold. The Giants, a northern team but NYC is not as cold as Green Bay, kept their emotions under better control, kept their "cool", and had their heads in the game better than GB. It was ironic it worked out that way - if anything the weather hurt GB more than the Giants. Favre did not play well in that game, but the Giants just played better. Talking about single factors in the game the main one was the GB failure to shut Burress down more than anything else.
The only things I can come up with in terms of this being a negative is that its a temporary solution. I say one or two years at the max. I also hope that Brett doesn't try to ad-lib on every play , thus leading to a lot of sacks in the backfield. also doesn't this stunt the growth of Kellen or is this the precursor for Clemens eventual departure?
Again, I would say that the pro-Pennington crowd (and I hate to use that term) didn't give Pennington a pass for last year. Most admit that last year was a bad year for Chad. However, I just disagree with those that seem to have this notion that Pennington has somehow been holding this team back "for years". Save for last year Pennington played well enough for the Jets to make the playoffs. It's not like they were a SB team that were doomed to lose because of Pennington.
AMEN. I swear way too many JETS fans try to find the bad in everything. Just enjoy having a legend as a QB till the first loss(if there is one, then you can rain on everyones parade.
At the end of the day -- it doesnt matter. Thats why the post is wrong. The trade, in essence, was: Favre for Pennington and a 4th Round or Higher Draft Pick. Why would you ever not make that move? They were begging Clemmens to win the QB job during TC and he could not. Maybe KC will be great -- maybe not. If they drafted Ryan or even Quinn -- then maybe this move would be short sighted --- but they have KC. BTW here are the qbs drafted in the 2nd and 3rd round from 2003-2006: Ragone Chris Simms Schaub Frye Walter Greene T. Jackson Whitehurst. Nowadays -- after the first round -- any qb drafted is just a "flyer" (or "flier") Even the first rounders during the same time, with the exception of the top four are still not "locks." Palmer Eli Roeth Cutler Leftwich Rivers Young Leinart Campbell Boller Grossman Losman Alex Smith Rogers
MY 2 cents My two cents. I have seen all the quarterbacks we?re talking about in actual game conditions at the stadium. Seeing them perform live with the full view of the field leads to different conclusion then you get from watching the game on TV. I?ll start with Chad. THE GOOD>> Good vision of the field, great at the chess game of audibles at the line, is well liked by the offense (you can see it in the huddle), somewhat mobile. If you are the intangibles type he gets an 8 on a 10 scale. THE BAD>>He tends to hang his throws, allowing the defensive secondary the time to recover and defend or worse still the lay the lumber on our receiving corp. After a while the receivers aren?t as sharp or crisp on their routes. AS an adjunct to this, the defense typically cheats (most of the time successfully) and shuts down the intermediate passing attack without the fear of giving up the long TD pass. His short out throws also hang or do not have the needed zip to cover the yardage quickly. If you're a defensive secondary player you are probably told keep the receiver in front of you and play the short & intermediate pass aggressively, don?t worry about the long ball. Clemens THE GOOD>> Ok, he has a good arm and gets the ball into places other can?t. He is more mobile. Good enough at reading a defense (considering he has only had 8 starts) and I THINK ( there?s that word again) he can get better. Not yet a great intangibles guy, but he will be. THE BAD>>INEXPERIENCE!!! the only way to get better is to play and make mistakes [[see, Brady, Manning(2), Brees, and just about any successful QB in the league. The only exception I have seen Dan Marino.]] Because of his arm he takes more chances than are good for the team. The defensive secondary MUST respect his arm and IF he had a deep threat receiver they would not have good dreams about playing the Jets. Farve THE GOOD>> A field general, knows the game better than the others, has learned that he alone need not win the game, but if he is called upon to do that, he has the experience and skills to succeed. Can throw to anywhere on the field with accuracy and zip. Average mobility, BUT is gritty, gutsy and will run for yardage if the opportunity presents itself, another aspect for which the defense MUST account. Any defense playing against him must cover the whole field, and cannot afford to cover just on area or play type. Successful experience in playoff games, a natural leader. THE BAD>>He is 38, does he really want to play? Does he really want to play in New York? When in tight game situations he takes chances, sometimes good, sometimes bad. His age, can he recover from the hits he will take as the O-line gels? If these are the three QB?s I?m choosing from and want to solidify a young UNPROVEN team, FARVE is the guy I would go with. He will give them solid leadership, TEACH THE TEAM HOW TO WIN (no small feat, ask Parcell?s, Johnson, Gruden, etc.), and you know that if he stays healthy the QB position will get solid and stout play from a more than capable veteran. WELCOME ABOARD BRETT, see you Sunday?s at 1:00 pm. Looking forward to a fun season.
Clemens is still young and will be learning from a QB who plays a style similar to the one he flourished with in Oregon. On top of that, I expect a high draft pick to soon go to the position if Clemens doesn't start looking great in practice.
I happen to think that the article sums up the potential downside of this deal. Everything is speculation in sports. There are no sure things. I happen to think that Favre's annual uncertainty and his age will leave the Jets with a giant hole at QB in two years when this team should be hitting its stride as real SB contenders and the Pats reign is ending. As it stands now, unless Brady is hurt, the Pats are going to win 13-14 games. The Jets are looking at a wild card and a road playoff game at best. Lightning is not going to strike again with a team winning the SB on the road three times like the Giants did last year. At worst, two years go by and in 2010 with a top NFL defense and one of the best OLs in football, the Jets will be holding a QB competition between Clemens (who has sat for 4 years) some draft pick, and Ainge. I would rather find our QB now and put him in so he is ready to win in 2010 or 2011.
I think all the IQ's have suddenly dropped on theses MSG boards since the Jets have landed Favre. I agree entirely with the Post article, wrong move. Old quarterbacks making team moves late in their career does not guarantee anything. See Namath and Montana. All this tells me is that Mangini & Co have the guts to take a chance and bet the house for 1-2 seasons...and what a chance it is. How does anyone expect any impact or significance to occur for a 38 year old QB to come in and learn an entirely new system? The Jets could have gone just as far if not further with Chad at the helm because he has done with a much more mediocre group and with half an arm - plus he knows the system. Will Favre show the youthfull side of his 38 years or the deteriorating side? Time will tell... and a few sacks as well.
I think this trade compells a comparasion between the recent playoff histories of these two teams: JETS: Jan. 7, 2007 - AFC Wild Card - New England 37, N.Y. Jets 16 Jan. 15, 2005 - AFC Divisional - Pittsburgh 20, N.Y. Jets 17 (OT) Jan. 8, 2005 - AFC Wild Card - N.Y. Jets 20, San Diego 17 (OT) Jan. 12, 2003 - AFC Divisional - Oakland 30, N.Y. Jets 10 Jan. 4, 2003 - AFC Wild Card - N.Y. Jets 41, Indianapolis 0 Jan. 12, 2002 - AFC Wild Card - Oakland 38, N.Y. Jets 24 GB: Jan. 11, 2004 - NFC Divisional - Philadelphia 20, Green Bay 17 OT Jan. 4, 2004 - NFC Wild Card - Green Bay 33, Seattle 27 Jan. 4, 2003 - NFC Wild Card - Atlanta 27, Green Bay 7 Jan. 20, 2002 - NFC Divisional - St. Louis 45, Green Bay 17 Jan. 13, 2002 - NFC Wild Card - Green Bay 25, San Francisco 15 Looking at recent history, Chad looks slightly better. AND he was sidelined for more of those years than Brett was. With a healthier line this year and reports of Chad being strong in camp, I am not sure this was such a great move. Thoughts?
Bingo. At least we know that there will be a young QB (hopefully with more talent) in the near future for this orginization. The Jets want it all now and Favre is the best available QB for the job. Clemens will battle Ratliff for a back-up position and the team will move on past the Chad Pennington era. If nothing more, that age old and incredibly tired debate can finally be put to rest.
Icon, do not look for reason on this board today. Especially on a day when the press and the fans who believe that all a QB needs is a powerful arm have their dreams come true. Just enjoy the publicity/circus and try and get behind your team and its decision.
Positives & Negatives Of Favre ! I was awaken at 12:30 am last night with the news that the Jets had acquired Brett Farve. I immediately turned on ESPN to hear more about it and then my brother called. I don't know how I feel about it as there are positives and negatives. Positives: - Favre is the all-time NFL passing leader and his coming off one of his best seasons of his career. - We didn't give up much to get him, just a 4th rounder pick that will be a 3rd round pick if he takes 50% of the snapes this year. If he gets 70% of the snapes and we make the playoffs, it's only a 2nd round pick. And if he gets 80% of the snaps and we make the Super Bowl, it's a 1st rounder but hell, I'll take that deal. - With all the money spent this off season, this makes us officially a "win-now" team. - It's definitely an upgrade over Pennington's weak arm and Clemens inexperience. - Favre's a proven winner, something we haven't had at QB since the Namath days. - It takes some press away from the Giants who are Super Bowl Champions (which still hurts) - He's a leader and throw for 28 TDs last year and won 13 of 16 games. - He makes us a legitimate contender. - The Jets get a star, a presence, and credibility at the QB position. - The "Spygate" issues won't affect Favre. - Favre plays best when the temperature dips below 34 degrees so let's hope winter comes early this year. - Favre becomes the best QB in Jets history since Pat Ryan and Glenn Foley to wear the #4. Negatives: - Favre is 38 years old and will be 39 during the season. That's pretty old if you ask me. - Favre worked out a ton in the off-season last year. I don't believe he did anything this off season so he could be out of shape. - This makes Jets management look desperate that their jobs are in jeopardy. - Favre is not a big-city guy so hopefully he can deal with New York. - Favre retired once and is not on either of the teams he really wanted to play for - Green Bay or Minnesota. So, will his head be in the game? - Favre has been playing in a system for many years and now has to learn a new system with the pre-season already kicking off tonight. - Will this be just a one year decision for Farve and have the whole will he or won't he scenario going on all next year? - How does this affect the development of Kellen Clemens? - Was this done to really improve the team or to save Mangini's and Tannenbaum's jobs? - Was this also done to east the brunt of the Jets officially announcing their PSL plan later this month? - Will a 39 year old Farve and the Jets be able to beat Tom Brady and the Patriots? - Is 1 month possible for Farve to get into shape, learn the playbook, and form some chemestry with his offensive line and his receivers? - Favre still throws a ton of big interceptions and the wind does swirl in the Meadowlands. - Favre is older than Mangini and Schottenheimer so hopefully he can listen to the youngsters when they design plays for him. - Favre did look horrible in the NFC Championship game vs. the Giants last year. Will he be just as bad vs the Patriots in a big game? - He's an old man...he could run out of gas in the 2nd half of the season. - Isn't it smarter to develop a young QB to lead the team for 10 years as oppossed to renting an old one? - The Jets don't have any commitment from Favre beyond 2008's season. - It's been a long time since a Fevre season didn't end without a big interception. - If he couldn't win the big game the last many years in Green Bay, what makes us think he can win that big game in New York? - Favre is only 3-2 all-time at Giants stadium with 8 touchdowns. - Favre is only 1-1 all-time vs. Tom Brady. - Jets play Seattle (and Mike Holgrem) this year in Week #16 and he knows Favre's game very well. - Is Favre on the Jets 17 years too late as we just missed him and got stuck with Brownagle back in 92' - The Jets scoreboard will probably now have "There's Something About Mary" clips. There are definitely more negatives here than positives. But, it's been over 40 years since the Jets won a Super Bowl. So, the Favre trade may not be the best move in the world but I do like that we are taking a risk. Maybe the risk will pay off and maybe it wont. But, if you just think about our QB position for this year only, Favre gives us a better chance to win than does Pennington and Favre. And if it pays off, the Jets are geniuses and I'll be happy as shit celebrating the first Super Bowl of my life. It should only happen !
Just my opinion but I think if the Jets had cut Chad at the end of the season and had Clemens, Ainge and company competing in camp there's no way they wind up making the Favre deal. The problem was that Chad was winning or close to winning the starting job again and the Jets were damned if they handed the ball to Clemens anyway and damned if they gave the ball to Chad. In either situation their QB competition was bounded by the limited skills and physical condition that Chad brought to the mat and their season was likewise bounded. By bringing Favre in the Jets have removed that limitation and at least for the moment can now lay claim to being a significantly better team than last year's 4-12 trainwreck.
