I understand 1/3 of our line Jenkins will almost surely be a top 5 DT again now, but does anybody realize how Kenyon Coleman isn't even an average DE? Have you guys noticed Ellis is still more of a 4-3 end playing in the wrong system? He barely produced 10 sacks the last 2 years combined... I mean I'm pumped about our linebackers, I'm real glad to have Jenkins now, Rhodes, and Revis will be studs for sure. I'm just not sure our D-line will get the job done as well as we are predicting. Afterall we have a terrible #2 CB and #2 Safety.
You don't under stad how the 3-4 works. Richard Seymour has 9.5 sacks in the last 3 season and is a very good DE in the 3-4. Ty Warren has 13 in the last three season for the Pats and is another good 3-4 Lineman. The Sacks come from the OLB's more so than the DE's in this scheme. Both Coleman and Ellis are slightly undersized for the 3-4 but can do the job required of them. I think they will have much better years with Jenkins holding down the middle.
i understand your concern but that is why we have 3 linbackers that are also DE ready(Gholston, Pace, Thomas), so i am sure coaching staff took all that into consideration
Thomas, Gholston, and Pace aren't going to play 3-4 DE. Ellis was DRAFTED as a 3-4 DE. That fact is lost on a lot of people. Coleman was fine last year. Wasn'tgreat, but he made a ton of tackles. Can't be too bad.
All we need them to do is hold at the point of attack. I think Coleman will be ok...the only one who concerns me is Ellis. He's getting up there in age, doesnt have the ideal size and will continue to wear down as his career proceeds. One comforting thought however, is that we have really good YOUNG depth. Mosley, Devito and Pouha are all young guys w/ upside...and anyone of them could step up and become a surprise starter.
Dude...You have good reason to be concerned about the Jets' D-line. I read those other comments & those guys aren't seeing the big pic to me. Somebody even compared Pats' front 3 of Warren, Seymour & Wolfork to Jets' Ellis, Coleman, & Jenkins...:rofl:. WOW...Now thats funny. Jenkins is the only one of that trio that could possibly match-up with the Pats' threesome. The difference between the Jets' DE's in the 3-4 defense & other 3-4 teams defenses is the Jets' actually have DE's playing at the DE position & the other 3-4 defenses around the NFL have DT's playing at the DE position & we all know that DT's are bigger & stronger than DE's. That seems to be a big difference up front when it comes to stuffing the run & creating a push up front. I honestly would like to see the Jets' trade for CB Lito Sheppard (if it doesn't cost too much), but I believe that they can make do this season with who they have at CB. I like there depth & players at Safety position. I like the fierceness & hitting ability of Elam at Safety. Jets' also have Smith, who is turning ut to be a nice player. They also have signed some very interesting F.A.'s. Check out Jets current, this seems to be the Jets' strongest & deepest team that Mangini has had yet. Team still needs to get stronger & deeper, but this is Jets' best team since Mangini has been the coach. Though this post is about the D-line, I would also like to see the Jets' bring in another veteran offensive lineman for depth or a offensive lineman with starting potential for the right side of the OL....be it guard or tackle. :jets:
First of all...the Patriots have a freakish front 3. Both Seymour and Warren are big enough to clog up space in the 2 gap..but are also quick and athletic enough to be disruptive like a 3T. Wilfork is a solid NT(Although alittle overrated as ive seen him be dominated by acouple guys including mangold). That front 3 is about the only thing left about that D that is even CLOSE to elite. But they are the exception to a general rule. Most 34 team's front 3, are under the radar guys who's job is to solely maintain their 2 gap. Pittsburgh, SD, and Dallas, are all playoff level organizations playing a 34..and aside from their NT's(which tends to be the glamour position of a front 3) you rarely hear anyone talking about their D-line, unless they're getting blown off the ball. Hell, look at the 98 Jets DL...Ernie Logan, Rick Lyle and Jason Ferguson...not much to get excited about there..but they got the job done. What's my point? We don't need stars in our down 3. Frankly we already have a guy w/ star potential at the most important of the 3 spots in Jenkins. All we need is a solid rotation of guys who can hold up to the point of attack and allow our young/talented linebacking corps to make plays. You say that we have 4-3 de's playing at 3-4 DE's: That simply is NOT the case. Ellis was drafted out of college to BE a DE in this very system. Coleman came from a similar 3-4 system in Dallas...so I'm not really sure where this prognosis is coming from. Our front 3 isn't perfect...but it could be alot worse.
Exactly...I have said that since the day we switched back to a 3-4 defense. Shaun Ellis posted 8.5 sacks as a rookie in the 3-4 defense. The key really was getting that NT and Pass rush threat from the OLB position.
Actually, the Jets used a 4-3 in 1998. Left to right the line was Lyle-Logan-Ferguson-Pleasant. The Jets used a 3-4 in 1997, 1999, and 2000. 1997: Lyle, Logan, Douglas 1999: Lyle, Ferguson, Pleasant 2000: Lyle, Ferguson, Burton In '99, Ferguson started 9 games at NT and Logan started 7.
Are You sure they didn't mix in alot of the 34? I admittedly forgot about Pleasant...but I recall them using alot of the 3-4...specifically when Ferguson got hurt and Logan took over for him at NT. Pleasant- Ferguson- Lyle Lewis Cox Johnson Farrior Glenn Smith Green Henderson
Though I am a Hindu, I want more beef. I want our front 3 to overwhelm the other teams' O-lines. I want our guys to get game-planned against. 3-4 Ends don't need to impress. We don't need superstars; as a matter of fact, I don't think there are any superstar 3-4 DE's. They really only have one job: take on blockers and hold them at bay, while the OLB's do their thing. Whatever they do after that is great. So basically: Sacks don't mean shit when you're a 3-4 defensive end.
I don't recall how much 3-4 they may have used that year, but the base was a 4-3. Marvin Jones got injured in camp that year and missed the whole year. LBs who got starts that year- Mo Lewis- 16 (LOLB) Pepper Johnson- 16 (MLB) Bryan Cox- 10 (ROLB) Dwayne Gordon- 4 (ROLB) James Farrior- 2 (ROLB)
The 3-4 Ends are used to clog up the line too alow the Outside Linebackers to roam and wreak havoc towards the QB... So really if a 3-4 DE gets a sack its probally on accident falling into the QB trying to maul a Tackle for your OLB's to plow thru. Ellis is more of a 4-3 End with out a doubt but he has shown some good versatillity in the new scheme.
OK.....Not to single anybody out. Jets' DE's are too small....PERIOD. They don't maintain or sustain the point of attack. Nobody is trying to equate sacks with good DE play. Bottom line is Coleman would be a better player by adding about 15-20 ponds of muscle. Ellis is ok as back-up now. To keep it simple....Look at Chargers starting DE's. Look at there height & weights. Look at Browns & other 3-4 defensive teams & if they are successful 3-4 defenses. Look at there sizes & weights & then compare them to the Jets' DE's. Now if Pouha lines up next top Jenkins....you might then see the Jets' stronger at the point of attack. Jets' also signed some 6'8" Samoan DE that hopefully is a player. We'll will see better come pre-season games.
He wasn't saying they were as good, he was just using the Pats line to show that sacks for a 3-4 DE aren't important, which is true.
So DEs score sacks in your 3-4 system? So if the DE goes after the QB, what happens to the OL? They just disappear into puff, eh? Man, I feel like I am old. I thought the sacks were coming from LBs in 3-4. If anything, Ellis and Coleman were the least culpable of last year's defensive collapse - or so I thought. Maybe I have learned wrong 3-4.
Well, they do: if your OLBs are not getting sacks, it's either 1. your OLB sucks real bad or 2. your DE/NT ain't doing their job. or 3. both.
