That's the point. The original comment that started the debate was that ARod is the "greatest Yankee ever." My issue with that comment is that this was not a comment based on raw statistics, and therefore, inapplicable to anything ARod has done on-field, where he is arguably (quite legitimately,) the best player ever, for any team. ---------------- The only reason I brought any stats into the conversation at all was in response to the question regarding Mattingly's "mystique." Mattingly was beloved by NYY fans for being a great player in a terrible era.
What facts? You said he was the "greatest Yankee ever." Neither statistically, nor from a fan-love POV is he the greatest Yankee ever. Sure, some day, he'll probably eclipse every single statistic, but not today. And as for being the "greatest Yankee ever" he doesn't have the love from the fans yet. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. Amazing how you cite Hernandez's rings as your proof he was better than Mattingly, but then deny ARod's lack of the same as evidence against you. (I won't even get into the difference that leaves between Jeter and Reyes. :wink Choose an argument and stick to it man. I'm fully willing to banter with you, but you have to stand on one definitive point, and not waver from it. Changing the argument whenever it suits you is champ69 style.
Ahh, but today I didn't freak out. I just played the game along with him, since I have nothing else better to do. :up:
Greatest is "fan love" or winning? Your all over the place. If the fans don't "love him" what about this? Here is a fact, the Yankees needed Arod to break the 4 million mark. They didn't draw nearly as well before Arod as they have since the trade. Rings an Jeter fist pumps weren't packing them in.
Time flys. You're right. Since we won't let facts get in the way we won't consider counting Mantle's 3 MVPs, or Berra's 3 or Maris's 2.
Keith Hernandez was more than just numbers. He was the heart and soul, ie, CAPTAIN, of a team that won the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP.
Well, which is your argument? If you tell me which direction you're coming from, I'll talk about it. Do you feel he is the most talented Yankee ever? He is. He's the most talented BASEBALL player ever, regardless of uniform. Do you feel he's the best Yankee ever, statistically? He's not. Not yet. Do you feel he's the most beloved? You know damn well he's not. So what is the meaning behind "greatest Yankee ever?" Define your question, and I'll answer. It's not a big deal. -------------------- Every year Yankee attendance rises. Year_Avg____Total_____AL League Avg 1996 27,789 2,250,877 2,122,721 1997 31,856 2,580,325 2,234,523 1998 36,484 2,955,193 2,298,169 1999 40,662 3,293,659 2,286,874 2000 37,956 3,227,657 2,262,557 2001 40,807 3,264,552 2,346,071 2002 42,736 3,461,644 2,207,891 2003 42,785 3,465,600 2,191,745 2004 47,788 3,775,292 2,340,422 2005 50,499 4,090,440 2,360,452 2006 51,858 4,200,518 2,458,741 You'll notice the Yankees consistently outdraw all other teams. Is ARod responsible for total attendance? Your argument that attendance went above 4M after his arrival is factual, however, as you can see, the total attendance has steadily risen every year since '96. (With the exception of a couple extra sellouts in 1999 before dropping back a bit for 2000, your favorite season of baseball ever. :up Is it all ARod bringing fans in? Or is it possibly that the Yankees are clearly at least the 3rd best, (arguably the best,) team in the AL every year? Could it also be that a whole new generation of kids who have grown up watching the Yankees win titles are now able to make the trip to the Bronx on their own?
Not really. That's the same exact argument, word for word, that Jeter fans make for him being better than A Rod/Nomar/whoever.
I have often wondered what would have happened if Arod started with the Yankees and Jeter with Seattle. I don't think this conversation would have much merit if they had. Jeter would have no rings and Arod maybe 5 or 6.
If he hadn't played on a juggernaut, with the New York hype machine behind him, Jeter wouldn't even be a household name. If he had come up with Kansas City or Pittsburgh no one would care about him.
one baseball writer's take on Hernandez or Mattingly getting to the hall of fame: Mattingly played at Yankee Stadium and had a short porch down the right field line for his entire career. Mattingly had Winfield in his lineup. Mattingly had RICKEY HENDERSON (the walking triple) in front of him. I wonder how many times Mattingly drove Henderson in? What has been the effect Henderson has had on other players he has played with? Mattingly's numbers are spectacular certain years but if you are going to compare him to Hernandez you must say that the lineups and stadiums were a world of difference. Hernandez played in 30 post season games. His teams went 18-12 in those contests. He was walked 8 times intentionally. That works out to an average of 43 times walked intentionally over a 162 game season. Bonds coming into 2003 had been walked over 43 times intentionally twice in his career. If Hernandez played at Yankee Stadium and had Henderson and Winfield in his lineup I think his numbers with homers and rbi's would have been better, but the bottom line is that I'll take two World Championships over more homers any day.
I wouldn't go that far. He'd still be on pace to finish his career with well over 3,000 hits, something that would send him to the HOF.
In a lineup like KC or Pit, with no protection, there is no guarantee he'd be on pace for that many hits. For one, he wouldn't have had nearly as many at bats, and the ones he did get would contain far fewer hittable pitches.
I guess because it's an impossible scenario to predict, there's no right or wrong answer. I think his pure contact hitting ability would make him a .300+ hitter where ever he played.
