QB - Now/Future

sorry "ideal size" but he's really just pretty average.
Ideal size has kinda changed. the days of the 6'6" statue QBs is gone for smaller faster guys anyway.

 

Well the ideal size comment is in relation to Wilson who very clearly has trouble seeing over the line. And for a guy who refuses to throw to a spot over said (ala Tua) not having ideal size is a huge detriment.

I’ll be shocked if Wilson fetches any sort of reasonable return. I was actually pretty surprised Lance got a 4th but as others have said, he’s a lot more of an unknown than Wilson.

 

not being able to read a defense isn't the same as not seeing over the line. brock purdy is 6-1, brees was 6', hurts is 6-1, tons of Qbs are shorter then zach and have no issues
darnold was a pretty well known after starting for 3 years and netted a 6th and a future 2nd and 4th.
rosen started a full season and had limited physical upside and went for a 2nd.
teams will always try and fix a previous high pick QB.

 

All of those QB’s are able to throw over the line because they trust their reads and where they’re supposed to throw the ball. Wilson does not and needs to see a receiver wide open before he throws the ball. If he was 6’5”, maybe this would be less of as he would feel comfortable playing see the receiver, hit the receiver.

Darnold was much better on a horrid roster.

 

wilson just can't process the game and is gun shy. nothing to do with his height. good Qbs throw to spots and trust the WR to be there. they anticipate the route. bad QBs wait for WRs to get wide open and then throw the ball. zach could be 7' tall and would still make the same mistakes. it's all mental with him

 

Zach Wilson can see over the line just fine. He’s just incredibly slow and stupid when it comes to processing a defense. We need to get him off this roster and draft his replacement sooner than later, preferably this offseason.

 

That’s the point I’m making though. He’s gun shy because he won’t throw the ball unless he physically has a throwing lane and sees with his dumb eyes the receiver. Otherwise he doesn’t throw the ball to a spot. If he was taller, he’d be able to see his them and wouldn’t hold the ball for so long.

Hurts, Purdy, etc. throw with anticipation because they can read a defense pre-snap. So whether there’s a guards helmet in their face or not, they throw the ball to where the receiver is and the defender isn’t.

 

he sees just fine. he's the same height as like 75% of starting QBs. he's just football dumb. shorter Qbs have no issue if they are smarter. hell rodgers is shorter then zach.

 

It has a lot to do with his height. Not everything, but a lot.

I remember Wilson's rookie year getting roasted after his putrid buffalo performance when I questioned his ability to see over the line. There was just no explanation for why he needed to keep going backwards and backwards before throwing it. 3 years later and he was still doing it.

A shorter QB can be successful in the NFL if they step into the pocket and throw in the designated passing lanes. They will always struggle to see over the line if they don't. But Wilson cannot do that. He appears to have no concept of why it is important to release it from those lanes. He waits, then those temporary lanes close and he is too short to find anyone

lost cause

 

I don't think his brain is functional enough to play the position. Zero to batshit loco in 2 seconds.

 

Well the real issue is that if AR is coming back, Hackett is his handpicked OC. So I don’t believe for a minute that we would fire Hackett if AR is coming back (and it looks like he is).

I may be wrong, and I get that we hired Hackett before we had AR here, but I think it’s pretty clear that he was hired as part of the recruiting pitch to AR.

I hated the hire from Day 1…for various reasons…like Gase, I believe that it was AR who made Hackett (just like Peyton made Gase), not the other way around. I also hate hiring retreads who were fired for being terrible. Hackett did a full on SHIT job in Denver, much like Gase did in Miami. There was NO reason to go get Hackett outside of AR liking him. That’s it.

So unless AR says, sure go get someone else, I just don’t see a change happening. To me, AR and Hackett are a package deal. They came together and they’ll likely have to leave together.

 

I agree that it's harder to find a QB with the tools that Zach has than an O.C. who can develop them. This is pretty much the root of my argument against those wanting to toss Wilson aside, and who seemingly ignored the shitty job the OCs did with him - and let me insert the canned statement here: No I am NOT absolving Zach of any responsibility. But I'm hoping that people can begin to see just how much a bad (or good) OC has on a young QB - essentially they make or break them. With the Jets and their decades long devotion to defense and ignoring offense, they've ruined so many young QBs who the fans thought - maybe rightly in some cases - those QBs just sucked. But I think it was the lack of a good plan for developing them.

Look at the difference that Daboll made with Jones, and I don't Jones half the ability of Zach. Or better yet look at what happened with Trevor Lawrence when they got rid of a bad HC and CS and got one that knew how to develop QBs and an offense. There are many other examples, and for every one of those examples of success there's almost an opposite story of failure from the Jets. This is the thing that has driven me crazy in trying to get people to see that whatever flaws and shortcomings Zach had or has, they weren't the main issue, it was the CS - and by extension the GM who picked the HC and "bought the groceries". And in trying to get people to see that I've been labeled with all sorts of names. But as annoying and frustrating as that is, I will continue to beat that drum: When your offense sucks for decades over numerous QBs, rookies and vets, it ain't the QBs.

So yes, to answer your question, they need to replace Hackett. But they don't have to fire him. They can give him another job to keep Rodgers happy, or just let him be a figurehead OC. When/if Rodgers retires, if Zach is still here, let Rodgers become the OC - I'm not so sure this wasn't the plan all along. If for some reason Zach balls out and shows that he's finally figured it out and can become the FQB we hoped he's become, maybe they accelerate Rodgers' retirement. Or if none of the above, just hire a proven offensive guy - maybe Reich - to be the OC and be the backup for Saleh if ultimately fails.

 

For sure. Rodgers doesn't walk on water and fix everything

 

Question…and it’s an honest one not trying to be a dick or argue for argument’s sake…

What makes you say that you don’t think Daniel Jones has half the ability of Zach? I think Jones and Zach are actually pretty similar, but I think Jones is bigger / taller (though I’d have to check so I’m not absolutely sure of that), and Jones has been just as if not more athletic…I think he’s run for a lot more yards than Zach has…I think his completion rate is about 64% compared to Zach’s what, 57%? Jones has more TDs than picks and an 85 or QB rating, compared to Zach who has more picks than TDs and about a 74 QB rating. So the objective measures favor Jones. Neither guy has done great, both have had shit OL’s and not a great cast of receivers…both have had a good RB behind them in Saquon and Hall. To me, they look pretty damn close in terms of results with a bit of an edge to Jones if anything.

Granted different teams and different situations, but both had shit coaching, shit OL, mediocre receivers, etc.

It’s interesting how close they are.

Objectively, I’d say they are both about the same … so was just curious as to what you are seeing in Zach and not in Jones to say Zach is way better.

Again, just trying to have a convo and not a Zach bashing session

 

Fair enough. But again, if you're just going to list stats and compare the numerical differences, you're not going to see what I mean.

What I mean is that Zach has an elite - top 1% - arm, and before he was handcuffed by MLF and Saleh, he was on a trajectory to mimic Rodgers. Whether he ever would've gotten there we'll never know, but almost everyone who evaluated him expressed that assessment. I don't recall a similar assessment being made about Jones. I'm not saying Jones is terrible, just that IMO Zach had more upside.

Yes, Jones is a little bigger, but size hasn't been Zach's issue, and where it really matter - arm strength - Zach is better.

And Yes, Jones has produced better stats, but again, context: Jones has had the benefit of better support enabling him to produce those stats. If Zach and he had switched roles IMO Jones's numbers would be more like what Zach produced.

And I guess on a deeper and broader organizational aspect, we can see how much more the Giants valued their QB than a CS that wasn't getting him to perform the way they believed he could. The opposite of the values the Jets hold. Playing in an organization that demonstrates its belief in you by firing the CS and bringing in a new one makes a huge difference in a QB's self confidence. Unlike the Jets who used Zach as the scapegoat for their mistakes, and all but erased his self confidence, and when an athlete loses that he's just about finished. So what we just saw Zach do is pretty damn unbelievable. The "good news" is that after being shit on and being made the scapegoat, and perhaps even being told he was going to be traded after the season, Zach finally said "Fuck it!" and stopped worrying about making mistakes that would get him benched and just played the way he played at BYU. That player is obviously still alive inside him, but did he only make a brief escape, only to be put back in shackles, or will he continue playing with a "Fuck it!" mentality? If he does, I believe will see the player Douglas thought he drafted; if he doesn't, he'll be moving on to somewhere else and it really won't matter who's more physically gifted.

 

Yah…well I fully agree coaching makes a big difference…honestly Daboll is the guy I wanted exactly because I thought he was proven in developing a QB…he had a big hand in Josh Allen’s development, and we saw the improvement Jones made under Daboll compared to Joe Judge. And we see again how Daboll is getting results out of an undrafted Tommy DeVito. Coaching matters. I do agree Zach would probably have done better under Daboll than Saleh.

The part about supporting casts I think is pretty close with both guys…Giants have had as many injuries on OL as we have…both their starting tackles have missed a lot of time, their C missed time…so both guys have had way below average OL. Receivers is an interesting comparison…they have no one on GW’s level for sure; but once you get past him, you can make a case that they are better than we are outside of GW. We’re putting out Cobb, Lazard, Gipson…they’re putting out Sheppard, Slayton, Robinson, Hyatt…those guys as a group are better than our scrubs, but again, they don’t have anyone close to GW. They had Waller at TE but he’s missed a bunch of games too. So kind of a wash.

I get your thoughts on arm strength and I can see that … Zach may have the advantage there but Danny Dimes has made a bunch of deep throws too so his accuracy on those isn’t terrible. I think Jones’ issue is ball security in terms of lots of fumbles too.

But overall interesting comparison now that I was looking at it after reading your post…to me it’s not night and day different between the two guys…they’ve had similar situations with bad coaching, bad OL, sub par receivers, etc. Jones got lucky in getting Daboll and it got him a huge deal…probably overpaid but if not the Giants, I’m guessing some other team would have done something close to it anyway.

Well in any case, I hope Zach can start putting together games like this past one…he showed us he CAN do it, he just needs to do it consistently…I hope he can

 

I love it. Bieniemy could be loved here in NY. He's got an infectious personality and that tough love 'dad' approach with the players. He's not some clown that talks tough too, he played in the league so players respect that.

I heard from Washington's camp when a running back took a handoff during non-contact practices and ran the ball through the line he was on them to run to the goal line every time. Its the little things like that

But yeah, he's like the anti-Rodgers so there's no chance as long as this organization is under Rodgers' spell so to speak