There Is so much I don't agree with here and I don't truly know where to start. Morgan Moses played well here, you're downplaying his play. The only reason he wasn't still here Is because he wanted to move on and likely got more money to do so. Moses definitely doesn't count. McDermott was serviceable here. Why are you acting like he's a top starter In the NFL? He's not. He went to the Patriots, after being poached from our practice squad, and played serviceable football for them as well. He got signed to be a depth piece for them next year. Big deal. He Isn't proof of anything. Bologna. Elijah Moore hasn't played at a high level since being here. He's a massive question mark still, regardless of OC. He hasn't shown near enough yet to look at him like he just don't suck at the NFL level. Putting him In your list is moot until you see If he Is actually any good. We don't know. He might just suck, trying to pin that on MLF doesn't hold weight for me. Michael Carter just didn't look right last season. It was night and day for me from year 1 to year 2. This Is also a contradictory because If he was productive his rookie season, then regressed, how could you not give MLF credit for the good season considering he was here both years. So he was good enough to make him productive year one but he wasn't good enough to make him productive year 2? Huh? James Robinson doesn't count either. Dude has knee problems. He lost his role with the Jags and wasn't productive there either with the knee issue. Dude wasn't a good trade for last season. Maybe he gets healthier going Into next season. This one Is dumb obvious though. Zero chance MLF had anything to do with this one. Laken Tomlinson didn't play terrible last season but It wasn't up to prior seasons. However, there Is a reason the 49ers didn't resign him, he was let go for a reason. He was productive In the same scheme when MLF was there, yet, he lost a step last season. I'm willing to bet, his best days are behind him. Probably wasn't the best FA signing In the world. We shall see. Zach Wilson shouldn't make the list considering he Is just bad. Hands down. He just sucks. If I was to blame anything on MLF when It comes to this kid, It's that he was one of the main voices In that building pounding the table for this team to draft Zach Wilson. We never should've drafted him. Duane Brown It was widely known that DB played significantly hurt almost ALL YEAR. It was a major factor In his play. It's common sense why he had a down year. Very obvious. CJ Uzomah put up the same type of numbers (outside one year) he usually does. He didn't regress, he was used in-line a lot and then he produced around the level you would expect. Considering he was the #2 TE, with injuries that kept him In-line more. I don't agree with any of your list here. It just doesn't make any sense to me and none of these guys are world beaters by any stretch. Here or there. Only exception might be MM but he played well here the one year he was here. So, it's not a shocker to me that he went to another team and played at a high level. At all. A good OC doesn't have this type of roster and injury malfunction. What "good" OC elevated their team with this level of shit to work with? Again. For the millionth time. Dog shit OL, Injuries out the ass, backups were backing up back ups, and we literally had the worst QB In the league leading that shit show. It's a recipe for failure at all levels. I have been honest and I feel like my argument makes way more sense to me. If I'm honest. Of course It's just my opinion but I'm very confident on my stance here. Nothing you've pointed out feels credible to me, If you had a valid argument that I felt was valid, I'd be very open to the idea. I am someone that doesn't mind being challenged, being wrong, and being made aware of those errors benefits me In the end. This Isn't one of those times though. Everything you are trying to spin just makes me feel like you're making excuses for the dysfunction that truly was there, by placing all the blame on one person. MLF. Sure, It's easier, but Is It really right? I don't think so. At all. He could've definitely done things better but I absolutely don't believe he was THE issue for this offense or players. Doesn't make any sense to me with everything that had happened last season. There was a lot of positives there despite the dysfunction, but he doesn't get any credit for that, right? He just gets blamed for the bad. Rinse. Repeat.
With this logic you can excuse anything. One or two excuses I am willing to accept, but not this many. Morgan Moses was OK here, nothing special. He signed a very modest deal after just OK season here. Granted given how bad our Line was this year, OK would be amazing for us, but really, his rating went up drastically according to PFF to #13 this year from average here. One of the best RTs in NFL in Baltimore, just solid average guy here. McDermott didn't play well here, was bottom of our chart. He was relegated to practice squad being viewed by MILF below guys who made our line dog shit. And he was rated average starter in NE. Worse than dog shit here. Come on now. Total failure here, solid average guy in NE. Elijah Moore showed a lot of promise last year and greatly regressed this year, especially relative to expectations. I can give MILF credit for him and Carter having promising rookie years, but they didn't take the next step. Again, a failure compared to expectations. Michael Carter See above. A failure compared to expectations. James Robinson counts. He had a 100 yard game this year in spite of injuries, we gave him physical, we spent a draft pick. A good back-up for Jags, total useless failure here. Laken Tomlinson That was a big signing. Yeah, 49ers let him go, but he was expected to do big things. Pro bowler in SF, one of the worst starting guards in NFL here. Maybe not just starting guards. Zach Wilson I know you hated the pick, but he was ascending end of last year. Aside from you, even his worst critics were saying he was a 1st round talent, just not #2 overall. MILF never saw eye to eye with him, never got on the same page, and Zach performed even worse than most critics were expecting. Duane Brown Yes, he was hurt. But the drop off is astounding. He was the worst LT in NFL. I am not sure if the injury alone is enough to explain the significance of the drop off. Maybe, maybe not. Pro Bowl LT before, the worst LT in NFL here. CJ Uzomah CJ was another big time signing. Conklin performed about same as last year, and CJ was supposed to be better than that. Which is why he got paid a lot more. He was also considered a good blocker, and blocked like shit this year. Clearly underperformed. Good starting TE in Cincy, a sparringly used sub here. This is a big chunk of the roster. For a few of these players, perhaps there is a valid explanation, where your reasoning is what caused the drop off. But this is too many to explain. It's just statistically improbable. The results speak for themselves, and they cannot be any more clear: MILF at least so far has not been able to elevate and take advantage of the talent his roster. In fact, the opposite is true. Same players he had did much better elsewhere right before or right after. Promising rookies who are not universally acclaimed top talent picks, regressed in second year.
I can't debate with you if you are going to ignore my points. Was Moses terrible here or was he better than anything we got from the RT position last season? If your answer Is, he was better than we had last season. Then I would agree. However. MLF does not make that decision on who stays and who goes. JD does. The next guy who would have a major stake In that, would be Saleh. Do you agree? If so, how can you blame MLF for this player going on to play at high level with a better team and talent around him? I'm not going to break down the rest, I could, but It's getting redundant to me at this point. So, I'll go a different direction. You're clinging on to guys like Connor McDermott as your basis for your argument. Based on a SIX game sample size with the NE Patriots. Do you honestly not think that's a strong reach on your end? These players. Are your basis for your argument. You really think this Is a strong argument to blame all of the offense being bad on MLF? Honestly. I also want to know If you truly think these players matter at the end of the day In comparison to the players that actually did play at a high level with MLF at the wheel? What Is YOUR level of expectation when It comes to these guys? These players, to me, are complimentary players. Guys that round out a roster, a offense, they aren't THE main focus points In any offense. I don't know how you can possibly use this as your proof that MLF Is bad? When I break It down, player by player, on why I don't believe you are correct. You just discredit my perspective and insert yours, that doesn't make It factual though. Like, you said James Robinson had a 100 yard game, as If that absolves the injury he had somehow? I mean. You had to have watched him play too, yeah? He looked slow, unable to cut, It was hard to watch. If I'm honest. Please inform me what James Robinson playing more would've done for us? When he was given opportunity, It wasn't good. So, how does MLF force that player, with the obvious injury, to perform at a high level when we all seen the way he was running the ball. This Is why I think you are biased within this debate we are having. I know I can't be the only fucking NYJ fan that watched Robinson run the ball thinking, damn, this guy can't run. He Is super slow compared to everyone else around him, etc.. Then you just turn around and tell me my assessment Is wrong, like that proves a thing. Like his 100 yd game absolves the obvious there. It doesn't. I have gave you a counter point to your initial argument, with these players being your basis for why MLF wasn't a good OC. Now you are claiming I'm just ignorant In my assessment. So, maybe you're right. So, answer those questions If you feel up to It and prove that my assessment Isn't correct. You have that burden at this point because you are claiming my counter argument Is obviously shit. My final point. It's not improbable that these types of things with a handful of players exist. As you claim. It's actually very likely. Especially with the circumstances we were faced with last season. Even without that though... It's the NFL. More people regress, fail, and are derailed by injuries than not In the NFL. The turnover rate In the NFL Is extremely high for a reason. It's not abnormal for a bad team to have mediocrity along the roster. Our offense wasn't good for a reason. We can both agree to that, correct? What If, the offense Isn't good because we didn't have enough talent AND coaching to make that shit work? See. I do like MLF. A lot. I think he has a very bright future. That does not mean I think he was here without his flaws. I think he did contribute to issues based on the desperation factor of everything falling apart around this offense last season, being new to the position, and simply not having enough to work with to make that offense run properly. That does not mean I think It was ALL on MLF or that he Is a bad OC. At all. It was a combination that I believe would've been rectified with the experience that was already gained from an adverse season, more talent on offense, correcting the OL and QB positions specifically, and allowing our injured players to get back Into the fold for this offense. That's my stance. I'm confident In that stance for many reasons I've already stated. It's not going to change based on anything you've currently presented, If you feel like proving me wrong, I'll be open minded, but you've currently stated nothing that makes me believe MLF was THE problem. Nor do I believe MLF was responsible for the majority of those players you listed.
Just wanted to weigh in on the Mc Dermott with the Pats part. He didn't look that great at NE, and only played because their line was crap. He wouldn't start on most teams, but right now quality o-line is at a premium. I mean GVR started a few game in Buffalo. Securing the best o-linemen in the draft has been the smart pick for the last several years.
I am not ignoring your points, I am trying to address each one of them. Apologies, if I missed something. On Moses, I am agreeing he was solid here, and I am not blaming MILF for letting him go. I am merely pointing out that Moses from an OK guy here went on to become one of the best tackles in Baltimore with a different OC. You said he had better talent around him and that is the reason, and that may be true, although Huntley wasn't a great QB. I also hear your points about Robinson, Zach, Laken, and others. Robinson did look slow/tentative at times, but I thought we could have used him in short yardage situations to get him going, particularly when we could not score form 1 yard line, and he is a power back who ALWAYS scored from there. But this is not even the point. I am not saying in each individual case you are wrong. My point is that collectively these guys performed below relative to expectation and relative to how they performed immediately before or after with other coaches. As far CMD, let me tell you why it is important. You keep saying how MILF failed because we had the worst OLine and worst QB play. We agree we had the worst play. But then late last year I watched some Patriots games, because Jets had a chance to make play-offs and I wanted them to lose. I thought their tackles and overall OL protection/blocking was solid, while ours in comparison was garbage. I didn't realize at the time it was CMD on the right side. In fact, when NE got CMD we were laughing on this board how they should have gotten him sooner, then we would have beaten them. CMD was total trash here, practice squad guy to laugh at behind the players that made our OLine shit. Then he goes to NE, new OC, and immediately looks solid, MUCH better than anyone on our line. Laken similarly looked really good last year and shit this year. I don't want to keep beating the dead horse. But I believe OLine underperformed even relative to talent we had, even in spite of injuries, and it impacted the running game and QB play. Which is why Benton was fired in spite of being close to Saleh. I think the crux of the disagreement is that you think it is normal for all these folks collectively to underperform like this, because it could potentially be explained individually and it is normal for almost everyone to play worse all at once. I just disagree with this premise. Yes, individually there could be valid reasons for some, but collectively if almost everyone but 3 blue chip guys are below expectations or play significantly better elsewhere, that means coach significantly underachieved with the talent he had. And I am not saying talent was amazing, I think JD needs to do better too, but my point is that MILF failed to get the best out of the talent he did have. Which is why his close friend had to fire him along with Benton after season end evaluation, even though he really didn't want to do it.
This Is where we disagree. I think McDermott was serviceable for us. I thought he played like absolute shit In 2020, from my recollection. Aside from that year though, I thought he was serviceable. He's nothing special though, here or there, especially In a 6 game sample size for he NE Patriots. This proves nothing to me. Sometimes, guys just flourish In other settings, teams, etc... Zero chance do I think McDermott because a viable starter In this league. He Is a guy, just like GVR, who I think we can all agree Is fucking garbage. Who Is JUST good enough to be a depth piece, but, clearly bad enough to never be a quality starter In this league. Which he proved for the Bills last season as well. So, we can just agree to disagree. Again, this just doesn't matter to me In terms of our current debate. I don't know what OL scheme the Patriots run, I don't know anything about their OL coach, I don't know anything about the guys next to him, etc... All these things are variables that matter. MLF has nothing to do with that. Our OL was shit. I couldn't even tell you who was playing at RT or RG for us at times last year. Felt like there was always someone out there where I was like, who the fuck Is that? So, these comparisons don't matter to me because the circumstances weren't the same. No matter how you slice It. Our OL was trashed, severely, they played better than I would have expected considering how many different rotations and injuries we had. I believe we had the most rotations on our OL than any other team. That's not a good thing. It's not a crux. It's a fact. When you are down to your 3rd-4th string OL along that front. We are In a bad situation. Which Is exactly what we were In last season. People are acting like our OL was still a quality line by midseason, It absolutely was not. How can anyone possibly think that? Seriously. You are also nit-picking who you want to call out In an attempt to justify your stance. If you want to have that stance, you should include the ENTIRE roster. Then try to look at It from a POV of realistic expectation. If you look at this roster on offense, It's razor thin In all honesty of talent. It just Is. This Is how I would rank these guys, and their play from last year. Studs: Garrett Wilson, Breece Hall, AVT Good: Tyler Conklin, Connor McGovern Okay: Corey Davis, CJ Uzomah, Laken Tomlinson, Bam-Bam, Ty Johnson, George Fant Average: Braxton Berrios, Jeff Smith, Duane Brown, Nate Herbig, Mike White, Joe Flacco, Michael Carter, Elijah Moore Shit: Dan Feeney, Cedric Ogbuehi, Denzel Mims, Zach Wilson, Chris Streveler, LDT This was our roster last season. When you look at these guys, does that really scream, talented offense? To expect an OC to do more than what MLF did, with this roster, and all those injuries. It's just unrealistic AF to me. Maybe your expectations are just a little unrealistic my friend? Idk.
Here is how the roster performed regarding to expectations IMO: Exceeded: GW, Hall Met: AVT, Conklin, McGovern, Herbig, White Below: Davis, Uzomah, Mims, Zach, Berrios, Carter, Moore, Brown, Fant, Flacco, Ruckert, Laken, Robinson, CMD, Feeney Didn't have much expectation and contributed accordingly: Strev, Max, Smith, Bam, Ty, Cedric, etc... - CMD you could argue there was not much expectation, but he showed capable fill in at starter in NE, when here no one was a capable starter, hence I include him. - Mims stunk in 2021, and actually did a little better last year, but that 2021 season was under MILF too. From the overall development perspective he looked better under Gase than MILF, hence I included him too. - Davis I felt was OK, but he was brought here to do more than he ultimately did under MILF, hence he is below expectations. - Flacco we are all saying now is a washed statue. But majority were not saying that when we signed him, some even said he was one of the better back-ups in the League. He wasn't. - Some that are in below column, actually went to Pro Bowl before or were expected to do big things this year by most, and played like the worst players in NFL, like Laken for instance. Not just a little below, these were massive massive downgrades vs expectations. Overall: greatly underperforming roster relative to talent expectations. Even the two guys that exceeded, I am not sure they exceeded as they were blue chip rookies with little point of reference. MILF is not the only one at fault, but as a coach he was not able to get the most out of his talent. Even when we look at the entire roster as you wanted. JD needs to improve talent, there is no question. But we also needed a coach who can extract the most out of talent, not the least, like MILF did.
Yeah. We just don't see It the same... Good debate, Sir. Gonna have to just agree to disagree at this point.
