If JD understood the value of the line he would not have invested 3 premium picks in a LG. He should have used those picks to take at least 2 OL and tried to build a line for Wilson and the Jets moving forward. Instead we have a line where 3 of the pieces are post-prime or moving there in a hurry to go along with two recent draftees, one of whom appears to have some durability issues. We've been through this before. Maybe the line looks good for a year or two but then it falls apart because we went the free agent route for 3/5ths of it and one of the draftees didn't work out the way we wanted him too. Not to mention our leverage in negotiations with the LG we just traded up for will be lower because he and his agent know that we invested 3 premium picks in acquiring him. It's just such a royal clusterfuck at this point.
I'm not in favor of the aspect that looks like every other Jets rebuild since 2006. Which is basically all of it. We had real talent on the team at the start of that rebuild. We have very little talent as the basis for this one. If you keep doing the same things you're doomed to fail, usually in the same ways but sometimes in spectacularly new and hard to imagine ones.
Seriously? Do you really think that you understand value better than JD? How many years did you work under one of the best GMs in NFL history or worked for any NFL team in a GM capacity? Sorry, but that's just laughable! Besides, the value doesn't reside in one player alone. The value rests in protecting Zach's blindside so he stays healthy and on the field, and our offense can flourish. With AVT and Becton we have a left side of the OL that could be All Pro every year for the next 10 years, and at worse, will be solid and keep Zach upright and healthy and our ground game churning out the yards. AVT was the best IOL and a perfect fit for our scheme. None of the other IOL were, and would either have been conversions from OT, had less experience and were not as good, which would have been risky for Zach. That's the definition of being penny wise and pound foolish! This is NOT the same as before. JD had no choice but to use FA. One can't have 5 rookie OL starting and then have to re-sign them all at once. Even if one could do that, it would have been 3-4 years before our team was any good, and one shouldn't risk a rookie QB behind an OL like that, so we'd have had to have gone the veteran JAG QB route or keep ruining Sam. If you truly like Sam so much, you shouldn't want to have subjected him to that kind of punishment and risk. One needs veteran leadership on the OL. Also, it was obvious by looking at the contracts that JD signed with those FAs, that they are stopgaps. With the exception of McGovern and Fant, the only guaranteed money was in year one, and with the former two only in years 1 & 2. I'm certain that he will continue drafting and building the OL, but then I'm certain that you know that too. I know your whole motivation behind this post is because, like Cimini, you're pissed that JD didn't agree with you, he traded away Sam, didn't trade down in the draft, and took the QB that you didn't think he should take or was worth it. Well that QB has been proving you wrong every day since he's been drafted. So now you're going to bitch and moan, and make crap up to try to make JD look bad. How sad! Now that we finally have a competent, professional GM, what seems to be a great CS, a team with a lot of young, speedy talent, a topnotch FQB prospect, and our GM did something that no other GM has done, build around that rookie QB, you choose to be Mr. Negative and can't or won't enjoy it because of your ego and because he didn't do things the way you think he should have. I feel sorry for you. Your saying that the team and/or situation is a royal clusterfuck is wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth! With your own words, you show to all either how little you know about football or that you are acting like a spoiled, petulant child who is pissed he didn't get his way, and has now put on his blinders, refuses to see the good, and is going to fuss and complain. JD added a TON of talent to the team through FA and the draft this year. There is legitimate reason for hope and excitement about this year and the future. I hope that you will let go of this mood you're in. You've been a solid Jets fan for years and suffered through the same crap we all have. You deserve to have fun and enjoy what is about to happen with the Jets. Let it go, man.
You are going to have to explain how this is the same. To me (and I have been a fan since 1993) this is the first time I have seen the team truly stripped down and being rebuilt the proper way. Joe Douglas has focused on both trenches with strong offensive and defensive lines. He drafted his QB, and has given him weapons to work with. The team is young and in a good position to keep building via Free Agency and the Draft in 2022. Not seeing how it is similar to the past.
How can you be so certain that those three picks - 2 of them OL - would've become at least above average starters? Answer: You can't. Since you like tossing out bromides, here's one: "A bird in hand is worth two in the bush". AVT was/is as close to a "can't miss" pick as an IOL as you could find. Coupling him with Becton to create a potential ALL Pro blind side, and also having an insurance policy in case Becton can't stand up physically, was a great move. Meanwhile, none of the other top rated OL left at that point were good fits, and as I already said, none were/are guaranteed to pan out. The line as currently constructed, even without Morgan, is far better than any OL that Darnold had. If they can add Morgan, it elevates the OL into at least middle of the pack range, which is a huge jump from where they were. Here's another saying: "Rome wasn't built in a day". As an almost 6 decade fan of the Jets I certainly don't have much patience left - nor years to wait - for another SB appearance, but even I can understand that to build a consistent contender it takes time because much of that base talent has come via the draft. Douglas hasn't been perfect, but he's been better than any GM since at least Parcells (and I think better than Tuna because he understands the value of a great QB on a football team). I guess if you want to live in the "dark side", that's your right, but I think you've lost your objectivity.
The line looking good for a year or 2 would be a great start since it’s looked awful for a while now. That and it comes down to protecting Wilson. As has been stated, 4-5 rookies on the OL wouldn’t be a good situation for them or Wilson. The Jets have made good runs when they brought in good vets on the OL. Yes, those teams had some pieces in place. In a couple years we should be able to say the same about this team. I don’t think many of us are expecting a winning season, but to be honest I’m actually intrigued by the new approach. Douglas really did burn it down and start to rebuild from the ashes (or rather, from the draft picks). The Jets haven’t done that in a while, or perhaps it just didn’t seem as apparent to me the last time they attempted it.
Yeah just as a general philosophy I approve of the idea that burning a few resources to get the one absolute premium (god willing) guy at LG is better than 2 or 3 "regular" guys. If our guy does indeed turn out to be somewhere close to Quenton Nelson territory and just absolutely anchors that spot for years to come I give that two gold stars. We can work on the rest of it going forward.
Found a really decent O-Line article however I'm only focused on sharing their thoughts on our right side (loving LT Mekhi Becton and LG Vera-Tucker moving forward). • Van Roten was rated as the 42nd guard out of 80. "He was decent in the pass protection with a pass-blocking grade of 71.5 — he gave 24 total pressures with three sacks, two QB hits and 19 hurries — but struggled with run blocking (grade of 54.4)". • George Fant was rated as the 64th qualifying tackle (out of 80). "He allowed the 18th most pressures in the league (33). He gave up three sacks, six quarterback hits and 24 hurries". (Full article below) https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/ny-jets-grades-offensive-line-20210409-pcsgmigvknexlpaj6i62mlngmu-story.html?outputType=amp
Being optimistic doesn't automatically make you objective. I agree we should be better then last season. I hope we are better then the last 5 seasons. That is being objective because I'm not claiming success before it happens. Last season I was convinced the moves JD made would make us much better than in 2019. In fact, we turned out so bad that we had nowhere to go but up in almost every facet of our team, from coaching down to positional play. So yeah, we'd better be improving this season. But considering all the assets we had this offseason I cant state with the same certainty that so many others seem to have that we are a much better team, or that we are rebuilding the best way. I've been very vocal that if we wanted to truly rebuild through the draft then we would have traded the #2 pick instead of rushing into another top 5 QB early in a rebuild. Brad is correct, since we drafted Wilson we should have taken at least 2, better yet 3, top round linemen this draft. That would have been a serious commitment to Zack's development and future success. Instead we spent 3 top round picks on one linemen, then went WR. AVT is projected to be a solid starter. He was not projected to be Quinten Nelson or even a future pro bowler. If it happens then all is forgiven. From where it sits ATM we have an extreme investment in a starting left guard. There were so many better ways we could have played this. Your offense is only going to be as good as the o-line. A bad o-line equals a bad offense. An average o-line offers the potential for an average offense - and so on. You cant have a great offense without a great o-line. Not a servicable o-line, or an average o-line. Its the most important place to start rebuilding. If we are able to field an average o-line then the best we can expect is an average offense this season. That is, if we end up with an average o-line. We used a very valuable pick on a QB with a history of shoulder surgeries. That is just another reason our draft should have been o-line heavy. Its not genius to be going after Moses - its necessity. Also, I feel that what some are calling dark siding is when a person doesn't rave about everything JD has done. I get many here view JD as a big savior, and I hope that becomes true. However, his results haven't been that great yet. His record is 2-14, which so far is worse then Mac and the rest in the 2000s. This is partly because he did a poor job of building last season. I get that Gase and Darnold were issues, but the FA he brought in were largely useless. His draft was average and, at least to this point, revealed he took the wrong guy in the top rounds. (Becton over Wirfs, Mims over Claypool, Zuninga, Morgan, Perine, Clark?). Last years 2-14 team had JDs fingerprints all over it. I'm not saying JD is a bad GM, or that last year couldn't happen to any GM. But many people here act like it didn't happen. On the other hand his Adams trade was awesome, and I have hope with Saleh (LeFluer less so). When he joined it was said JD had a plan. After 2 drafts and two FA periods I cant say there is a really focused plan. He is cobbling slapdash, taking big chances, and hoping for the best. I respect taking chances, but its not really a tangible rebuild plan. If he has a special eye for talent it has yet to be revealed. Its not that some people don't like JD. But he had nowhere to go but up, and the resources to do it that most GMs can only dream about. It doesn't hurt to reserve judgment, objectively, and see success before we start anointing JD the next Ozzy Newsome. Many people are already celebrating practically everything that he does, and that's fine for them. Just don't expect everyone to join in prematurely. I know his heart is in the right place. Yet for some he is already taking routes that perennial bad teams take, and its kind of concerning. Hopefully those that question him are mistaken in the end.
Douglas definitely isn’t above criticism. I think he made some mistakes last season, like dragging that trash offensive lineman out of retirement and letting Robbie go. He’s made other mistakes as well, but to be completely honest I never got the impression that he was all in on Darnold, Gase, or last season. I personally believe last season went mostly by design for Douglas. He wanted to draft top 5 because he knew he would be blowing the team up anyway. I know many would argue that, but I’ve seen things like that play out in the business world so I know that people can get away with it - often on route to improving their overall situation. Douglas came to a team - no - an organization, that had/has a massive culture problem. People like Adam Gase created a horrendous work environment. People like Jamal Adams and Le’Veon Bell were bigger than the team (in their own minds, anyway) and the team was built around guys like that. Douglas wasn’t just wheeling and dealing for draft picks, he was cutting the cancer out as well. I read a stat somewhere that said Douglas drafted 5 team captains in either this draft or the last one. He’s not just looking for good football players, he looking for high character individuals to build a winning team culture. The Jets have needed those kinds of people for a while now. They’re finally getting them, but it’s a process. One that I know many fans have no desire to wait for. They’ll probably lose a lot this season while hopefully learning how to win some close ones as well. I have a feeling that they’ll play entertaining games even in losses, which is why I plan to make time on Sundays again. For better or worse that tiny spark of hope seems to have returned.
It comes down to what happens in 2022. This year is about growing pains, learning new systems, and showing signs of improvement as the season progresses. Do they contend for a playoff spot and does Wilson take a jump in year 2 that Darnold didn't. If the team looks like it's stuck in neutral or going backwards then, it's time to wonder if we'll need a new GM soon.
When we can’t agree on the facts, we can never have a meaningful “debate”. I was banging my head on a wall the other day trying to make 2 main points: Last year was Fant’s first as a starting OT and Moses, on paper, doesn’t appear to be a seamless scheme fit into a wide zone blocking scheme. I never said Fant was headed for Canton. I simply stated it’s too early to judge him a failure. I never said Moses would be a bust. I simply stated it’s too early to judge him our savior. If we can’t agree that at 28yo, 20 lifetime starts and 1 lifetime season isn’t enough to judge a player at a position, I doubt we’ll agree on anything re: this offensive line. You spout your stats as if every game should be judged equally instead of on a curve. Ie to me games later in the year for the Jets hold more weight than games early in a year because it takes time for a new OL to gel. I believe in other posts you were all about signing Crowder Bc of his “locker room presence” but you’re eager to send one of our actual team captains to be a “bagboy”. Why do you hold on so tight to Morgan’s PFF score from last year in the 80’s but pretend his 3 previous years scores in the 60’s didn’t happen?
I’ve never heard of 3rd round picks being considered “premium picks”. To me that cutoff is around pick 50 ie the middle of the 2nd round; where is the “premium” cutoff to you?
I am going to throw out a different value theory on the trade up to 13. If you believe what JD said they would have taken Moore with pick 23 and Carter with the second 3rd pick. Essentially what this does is make the 3rd for a 4th even as they would have drafted Carter with their 3rd rather than with the 4 they got in return. Plus if would have took Moore at 23 they essentially traded their 2nd round pick which they chose Moore with and their 1st 3rd to trade up to 13. Which in retrospect looks like a hell of a deal. What I am saying here is if we didn't trade up to 13. We would have drafted: 1. Moore at 23 2. Carter at 66 3. Still had our 2nd and 3rd rd pick 4. Would not have AVT or anyone at LG other than Lewis. Looking at the alternative the trade up value looks quite amazing. Essentially giving up a 2 and a 3 to get to 13 to take not only the best guard in the draft but thr best guard for our system.
Absolutely, but we haven’t even played a game in rebuild year 1. Not thinking too much about 22’ yet, though with the high draft picks and cap room we could end up in really great shape. There are scenarios where I could see JD getting canned after 22’ and scenarios where we miss the playoffs and he keeps his job, I just think it’s too early to speculate that far out.
I hear over and over again from multiple sources that it takes at least a year for a new OL to gel. The reason is because the OL acts as one and it takes time to synch. If the above is true, last year was the 1st of our rebuild as 4 of the 5 current starters are coming back from last year.
Re the 2006 rebuild, didn’t we make the playoffs in 2006, 2009, and 2010? Re the 2017 “rebuild” I don’t remember building an OL thru the draft. I don’t understand how this rebuild is the same as the last one.
ouchy, it really wasn't so soon into his (immediate) rebuild. JDs 2 year rebuild goes much deeper and goes way beyond top 5 draft position you've gotta analyze the big picture here man. He traded Adams for two 1st's and a 3rd and moved Sam for a 2nd. JD birthed no bastard here; Zach Wilson was planned for. • Mekhi Becton was his first ever 1st round pick as an NFL GM. He didn't reach on a QB here. He swung for the O-Line fences (preparing for his 2021 1st round rookie QB). • James Morgan was drafted 4th round and while I was playing checkers and questioning JDs backup QB pick lol JD was playing check mate because now Zach Wilson could already have his long-term backup on our roster (JD planned this). • Denzel Mims. 2nd round WR. Even dropped into and during the 2nd round. JD still didn't reach on a QB here. Took a WR in the 2nd round (for the first time in ages); • After drafting both Becton and Mims (2020) he then immediately (2021) with no hesitation followed up his lottery pick of Zach Wilson with both of Alijah Vera-Tucker as an LG who can feast @ multiple positions and an explosive Offensive Playmaking WR for Zach Wilson in Elijah Moore 2nd pick of the 2nd round. • Back to back 1st round picks on O-Line (2020-2021). • Morgan Moses could soon be on his way, too (veteran FA). • Took a FA gamble on a potential true #1 outside WR who's now escaped Tennessee for NY in Corey Davis. • Currently featuring 2021's 3rd most offseason available salary cap space remaining (Morgan Moses). • On the verge of featuring the 3rd most projected offseason salary cap space available come 2022's Free Agency. • Cap space galore. • Two 1st round picks (2022). • Another two 2nd round picks (2022). I believe all of these are a few examples @ouchy of an NFL GM who's planned ahead of time for the arrival of Zach Wilson and that #2 overall was perfect timing.
I can't see any scenario where JD would get canned after the 22 season. For that to happen, Zach would have to be a bust and Fields a top 10 QB, Saleh and his CS would have to prove to be failures, and AVT would have to be a bust too, and perhaps Carter and some of the others be meh-type players. That simply isn't going to happen. With the excitement that JD and Saleh have built, with the foundation and culture they are building, from the respect they are bringing to the Jets, and all the great moves that JD is making, there is just no way he would get fired after the '22 season. He'd have to rape or murder someone or sexually harass a lot of people in the franchise for that to happen. You guys need to stop thinking about his getting fired. Why in the heck would you be thinking about that with how good things are looking for the Jets? Granted, the season hasn't started yet, and we've been burned before, but still, anyone that jaded and cynical needs some professional help. Being cautious is one thing, but thinking about JD getting fired already is SOJ BS and just plain nuts. It's ridiculous to even be thinking about his getting fired, when and what it would take.
Hahah he has too much stank hilarious. I think edoga is depth, a 3rd rate olineman. Maybe at his best second rate. Let him go when we have the depth to.
