Would Jets Regret Trading Sam. Experts Say Yes

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by boozer32, Feb 10, 2021.

  1. zace

    zace Well-Known Member

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    Thats why they are ex coaches and players lol

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  2. phubbadaman

    phubbadaman Well-Known Member

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    I'm always arguing about this. Gase is/was a terrible head coach. He should never have been hired. Darnold was holding this team back with his play though. Gase was scheming guys open.
     
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  3. Imagesrdecieving

    Imagesrdecieving Well-Known Member

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    If the surrounding talent wasn't THAT bad then how come Joe Flacco looked just as bad as Sam in his playing time?

    He had a pretty good game against a very banged up patriots team(in a rare game where he had all 3 starting WR's) - but still only completed an atrocious 55.2% of his passes on 134 attempts for the season.

    I get that this is long past Joe's prime... but for people who pigeon hole Sam as the alpha and omega of our offensive problems - how do we explain how Flacco looked like absolute trash as well?

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  4. SoylentGreen

    SoylentGreen Well-Known Member

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    simply saying the talent was better than people think does not mean it’s true. The only constant at WR was Crowder and he’s put up the same stats as he always does with Darnold.

    Mims was hurt + a rookie, Berrios is a backup, Perriman was disappointing and not a starting caliber WR. Hogan is 33 and past his prime. smith, cager all the others need development + are not starting caliber.

    Chris Herndon dropped way too many passes, he was mentally checked out all year. Ryan Griffin was not the same player coming back from Injury.

    Frank Gore and Bell starting games this year was a travesty + showed truly how inept Gase was.

    The offensive line was revamped, but the only player who showed long term starting capability was Becton (and no he wasn’t consistent enough). Fant rated below average as a pass blocker and one the worst run blockers in the league. McGovern had an uneven season but there’s hope for him. Alex Lewis was hurt. The Jets had 8 different oline combinations in 2020, which is pretty disastrous in itself. Overall the line was bad and statically show it by ranking 29th.

    I have no problem moving on from Darnold, but making statements that he had solid or better talent around him than people think is not fair + a way to bolster the “he sucks narrative”.

    He hasn’t played well but his first season with the Jets in 2018 - McCown, Bridgewater everyone around him was gushing about his talent...

    I don’t even want to support Darnold too much at this point, I’m ready to move on...

    but I can’t honestly say the Jets helped his development.

    You want to say he doesn’t have it, that’s totally fair, but when you say he had better support than people think, I’m going to call out your BS.

    We bring another Qb and don’t address the above and it’s going to be rinse and repeat...
     
  5. Imagesrdecieving

    Imagesrdecieving Well-Known Member

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    This is it right here.

    Feel free to be upset with Sam as a no. 3 pick and want to move on from him - I get it.

    But to discount how bad of a situation it's been for him is criminal.

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  6. SoylentGreen

    SoylentGreen Well-Known Member

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    Agree -

    Flacco had his lowest completion % in 12 years as a pro, the lowest yards/game in his career - 60 yards less than his avg (232 yards) and went 0-4 as the Jets starter getting blown out in 2 games (0-24, 10-30)...

    Then you look at Tannehill (excluding his rookie season), his worst 2 years as a pro came under Gase... Most thought he was done as an NFL Qb... Miami fans wish they had him back.

    It’s not to say Darnold’s time with the Jets isn’t over so much as when you follow the facts they don’t point to Darnold as the root cause of all the Jets problems.
     
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  7. zace

    zace Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you should actually look at the stats. Youre simply not

    The jets ranked 8 in sacks which btw wasnt even close to the top 5 by as many as 15 sacks. In fact the offensive line was very middling. The difference between 8th and 15th was only like a handful of sacks, many of which sam made

    If you look at actual metrics, by all accounts this team was more talented than you or anyone gives them credit for. Theres a reason we were able to trade so many guys MID SEASON so easily.

    By all metric and accounts they were not the worst. Go actually look it up. Show me something that proves otherwise but i am amazing at evaluating data, i do it all day. The data is there. Flacco post prime performed better than Darnold, but thats like saying well two shitty qb didnt make the talent better so that proves the talent sucks.....no way at all.

    Put Brady or Brees on this offense and they woulda won a hell of a lot more games and probably coulda snuck in the playoffs

    Im not asking anything like that from the qb obviously but Cmon stop blaming the talent, its Darnold. He misses or cant see wipe open guys all game.

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  8. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    The key thing to remember is that a LOT of players have physical talent. Every single player that is drafted into the NFL or signed as a UDFA has physical talent. It takes more than that. Another way of saying that is that it's a lot more than degrees of physical talent. Supremely physically-talented players bust every single year. Lots of QB bust or don't pan out. The reason is that they don't have the additional types of talent needed to become consistent or maximize their physical ability. In my years of working with individuals, I've realized that there are differing types of talent, there's instinctual talent (innate understanding of how to use and develop their physical talent), there's mental talent/football IQ/understanding complex systems and what's required of them, and there's emotional talent/attitude/mindset/work ethic. Some players are very fast or have strong arms, but are limited in instinctual talent or maybe mental talent, or maybe don't have the burning desire to be the best they can. Even with physical talent, there are differing areas. Some players are fast but may have poor hands. Others might have great hands, but be slow, or have tight hips and not good lateral agility. Some have great height/builds, while others struggle to keep weight off/on and may be vertically challenged.

    We all know that amazingly physically talented players don't make it in the NFL, yet some who have much more modest physical talents, but who have amazing instinctual talent, desire, heart, work ethic, succeed and become stars. Some are just lazy or only play the game for the money, they don't have the desire to be the best they can or don't know how to do that.

    A prime example for Jets fans is Antonio Cromartie. He is one of the most physically talented players to ever play in the NFL, but he never worked to refined the necessary techniques for his position and to be the best he could be. He was content to get by on natural ability alone pretty much his whole career.

    The Jets definitely didn't do anything to help Darnold, and in fact, it has almost been like they were trying to sabotage his career. If they had sat back when they first drafted him and plotted how they could ruin his career, I'm not sure that they could have done a better job. That said, Darnold bears responsibility. Some players thrive no matter what. Their own desire, heart, instinctual talent and emotional talent enable to them to succeed. It may not be Sam's fault. He simply may not have the football IQ, or the mental or the emotional talent to succeed. His basic nature may be too laid back. Converselly, if it's true that he refused to change his footwork, then he definitely doesn't have the right mindset, the right mental and emotional talent.

    I have worked with or have had colleagues who were close friends tell me of supremely-talented individuals that they worked with who were simply lazy, took their talent for granted, and weren't willing to make changes/put in the necessary work to succeed. Others did work hard, tried their best, but still didn't succeed. Sometimes I wonder if fate or destiny doesn't play a part in these things. It's always sad to me when someone can't "put it together" and maximize their talent, but maybe that's not what they were supposed to do with their lives.

    IMO it's sad that Sam didn't work out here. It would have made things a lot easier and better for the Jets if he had. I hope that the can still "put it together" and maximize his talent elsewhere, but to be honest, I will be surprised if he does, regardless of what the reason(s) may be.
     
    #28 NCJetsfan, Feb 11, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  9. REVISion

    REVISion Well-Known Member

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    Because Joe Flacco also sucks? Isn't it obvious lol? For the record though he played better than Sam did during this past season.
     
  10. Imagesrdecieving

    Imagesrdecieving Well-Known Member

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    Flacco has proven throughout his career that he is a competent journeyman type qb who can get the job done.

    Yet his numbers for the season were all the worst he's put up in his career. If you take out that one game which was a clear outlier his numbers were historically bad.

    Again - I'm not making the argument that Sam is our guy. It's just that if he were really the only thing that was holding the offense back then Flacco would have been able to propel the offense to respectable numbers.

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  11. RochesterJet

    RochesterJet Well-Known Member

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    LOL- So let me get this straight. Brady or Breese would have meant a +9 in the wins column and gotten us to the playoffs? Is that what you're saying?

    If so, you've completely oversold the talent surrounding Sam.
     
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  12. zace

    zace Well-Known Member

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    Yes, because they would have found open guys and we could have wont a lot more games among weak teams

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  13. BacktoQueens

    BacktoQueens Well-Known Member

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    Put at least avg talent and coaches around him, and I think you’ll see an avg starter.
    it’s not a mountain.

    We had the worst coaches and roster in league last season. That’s how low the bar has been.
     
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  14. REVISion

    REVISion Well-Known Member

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    Flacco's peak was competent journeyman, he hasn't been close to that in some time.

    Flacco 2015 season:

    64% completion/14 TD/12 INT/6.8 Y/A

    Flacco 2016:

    64% completion/20 TD/15 INT/6.4 Y/A

    Flacco 2017:

    64% completion/18 TD/13 INT/5.7 Y/A

    He produced even worse numbers in 2018 and 2019. He hasn't been "good" for quite some time and that was BEFORE he had a major neck surgery. He was trending downward for a solid 5 years prior to getting to the Jets.
     
  15. RochesterJet

    RochesterJet Well-Known Member

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    Dude... you do realize a +9 would be a HISTORIC replacement value right?

    I could see 3 games, but +9? You're clearly being emotional
     
  16. zace

    zace Well-Known Member

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    Soooo yeah looking at metric and making a decision is being emotional. Thats you right now not me

    Doesnt matter show me stats that prove otherwise.

    You wont find them. Just like i said the oline wasnt that bad, only to be proven right, Im right about this one too.

    Metrics say this team wasnt nearly as untalented or dysfunctional as people believe. Stats and facts do not lie.

    Blame gase for not having the team prepared or adjustments, but the play calling and poor output was more about an incompetent qb.

    Guys were getting open. Every team we played did not have elite CBs and safeties and pass rushers

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  17. RochesterJet

    RochesterJet Well-Known Member

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    SO now I have to prove your claims for you? Did you not say the Jets would sneak into the playoffs with Tom Brady or Drew Breese last year?

    LOL how about you provide ME with FACTS/STATS that show Tom or Drew would equal 9 more wins (11-5 would be the record). Who would we have beat? what games?

    In case you didn't watch, the Jets got beat by double digits in 9 of the 17 games (53%) 8 of which they got BLOWN THE FUCK OUT in

    Clearly you're digging in your heels in based on a previously dumb statement
     
  18. REVISion

    REVISion Well-Known Member

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    I think the answer is somewhere in between both of your arguments. Brady was good enough to give the Bucs 5 more wins than they had last year with roughly the same surrounding team. The Patriots also lost 5 more games than last year after losing Brady.
     
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  19. bicketybam

    bicketybam Well-Known Member

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    2013 and 2015 were worse with Philbin. 2014 he posted a 92.8 passer rating which is .1 higher than the 92.7 he posted with Gase in 2018. In 2016 he posted his highest passer rating with Miami and Gase was the coach. He didn't play in 2017.



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  20. bicketybam

    bicketybam Well-Known Member

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    Flacco was coming off a major injury that caused him to miss half of the last season. New offense, no preseason and the dude is 35. You would expect a complete train wreck but I though the offense looked more alive with him at QB. At least the ball traveled in the air more than 8 yards.

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