Your argument went from saying he was excellent to saying he was only mediocre because of the coaching. You'll shift the goalposts however you need to in order to defend your point. This is pointless since your target is constantly shifting. In 2019 these were Sam's league rankings in the following stats: Yards per attempt: 32nd QB rating: 32nd Completion percentage: 30th Interceptions: Tied for 6th worst (and that was while playing 3 fewer games than most QB's) Passing TD's 30th This is the guy you claimed a minute ago played "excellent". There is literally no point in arguing with you. Your views on Sam are not based in reality. You cannot possibly blame numbers that bad entirely on the coaches and surrounding talent.
Darnold looking like a go for this week. Which is good, his play will settle this whole debate. If he can't win enough games to keep his team away from the no.1 overall pick then he deserves to be replaced by Trevor Lawrence
Stop! He was dead last in almost every category. My god, is your claim he'd move up 20 spots in the rankings with better receivers? Stop making excuses! He was horrendous. I've watched Sam every game and there are tons of mistakes every single game that are solely his fault. Missed receivers, awful throws into multi coverage. When do the excuses end?! How about just accepting the evidence for what it says instead of bending over backwards to rationalize it?
Move up 20 spots w even average pass protection,average running game,Average WR talent & an average HC/position coach catering a system to his actual strengths? You betcha.
It's too bad that you can't separate actual performance from raw stats. Yes, Sam was "excellent" for stretches despite poor coaching, play calling and surrounding talent, because he was able to overcome those things to produce wins and allowing his team to be competitive. There's no "moving of the goal posts" in that regard. As to the other stats you posted, you do realize that these are heavily dependent on the play calling and the ability of receivers to get open and hang onto the ball, right? I've never said Darnold is great, or that he's earned the FQB tag, but that's far different than declaring that he sucks and can never become a FQB given the right circumstances. On that point I completely disagree with your assessment.
This is why I and a few other folks here are begging to keep Gase. Not because he is good, but precisely the opposite. With that said, in the next 10 games whether it is him or his assistant, players are not going to much improve their development. That will happen during off season, working with the program of the new coach. You may recall me almost crying on this board during offseason to get rid of Gase, because is absolutely incompetent. It's now for this exact same reason why we need him for next 10 games. A slightly better coaching could have probably won against Denver. We would be 1-5, still a shit team with no hope for this year, but now further back in the "race" for Trevor. Largely because of Gase we are still in this race, and we now need him to stay in this race. Think of it this way. Before Lawrence Clemson had Watson, who is rookie of the year and all pro QB and who also did great things. Yet you won't find a single person watching Clemson who will tell you Watson was a better prospect than Lawrence. Everyone says Lawrence is next level even from excellent Watson. Again, not a sure thing, but Watson level seems like a floor for this guy, with ceiling even higher. It's pretty remarkable and exciting if we can get a shot at this level of talent. I understand why you say he may stay: it was obvious last year that he should be gone, and he wasn't. However, I remember even a few fans on this board wanted him to stay, to have continuity for Sam, etc... Some argued with me Tannehill still sucked and wasn't going to get contract (whoever that was, you may admit you were wrong now ), and Gase needed one more year. Now, there is simply no reason why Gase stays. No one will make this argument now, and with JD here for a year, I am ready to bet the farm Gase is gone after this season the latest and JD hires his own coach. I would not trade Sam for 4th round pick either. JD understands how important it is to have a decent back-up after winning SB with one. Sam is still on rookie deal, will be a 3 year vet. I am not against keeping both, with Lawrence maybe learning for some time. If someone offers a high 2nd or 1st though, it may be tough to pass up.
Sam's turning the ball over, bad footwork, poor decision making, taking unnecessary sacks/not throwing the ball away, and poor reading of the Ds are more attributable to Sam than they are Gase. Gase could help with those things, but most of those things Sam should already know by now. So just having a different coach isn't going to remove all those flaws. I think for Sam to really improve he may have to sit for a year and just work on his fundamentals and learning how watch film/read Ds. He's probably not going to have that opportunity and wouldn't go along with it anyway. Our new CS is going to have their hands full as it is. I don't see them as having the time to fix Sam. If it were just tweaking a few things and teaching him the new offense, that's one thing, but when his basic footwork is bad, accuracy is often awry, he has problems reading Ds, makes poor decisions of where to go with the ball, locks onto receivers, and doesn't throw the ball away, I just don't see how they're going to have the time even if they have the inclination, which they may not. They may see Sam as ruined or unsalvageable. I get why you like him and want him to succeed, but I sadly, I think that ship has sailed.
There won't be any QBs like Lawrence, and with a better team, and perhaps a 7-9 record (or maybe a little worse), they really won't be in the position to get a QB without giving up a haul of picks, which will undermine what we got for Adams and for trading down this year, and we'd most likely wind up with a vastly inferior QB. That would defeat the purpose of trading down. This just doesn't make any sense to me. It's repeating the same mistake Mac made in 2017 passing on Mahomes and Watson. I'd rather roll with Sam and perhaps waste $25 million than draft some schlub QB in 2022.
I understand this logic, but again, there are two major problems with this: 1. The longer Gase stays, the worse he makes everyone, potentially even ruining them 2. As long as he stays he's still the HC and no one can assume he'll be fired. My arguments about why Lawrence may not become a Jet, or should not be drafted by the Jets, have very little to do with questioning his ability. To use your Watson reference, while certainly made a positive impact on the Texans, he hasn't carried them to the VLT either. That's not a knock on Watson, that's just proof that it takes more than an excellent QB to achieve that. There are a number of #1 drafted QBs who have not won a VLT. The Jets will have to reverse DECADES of mishandling QBs and offenses in order for Lawrence to succeed, and there is no guarantee that will happen. Again, until the Johnsons actually prove that they have a functioning brain cell between them, Gase is the HC. And you are absolutely right that he should've been gone last year, in fact he should've been gone after 4 games last year because anyone who knows football, and was aware of his failures with Miami should have been able to see that he was going to do the same thing here. So given that, I remain skeptical that he'll be fired until he actually is. Good! We agree on this point!
The thing is, that the Jets have to make a decision this offseason whether to accept the 5th year option for Darnold. They can't, which would mean that they would have to pay him $25 million to be a backup. So that means, if they get the #1 pick, draft Lawrence, he wins the competition, and Sam becomes the backup, then they have him for one year, and then he walks in FA and the Jets get a low 3rd round compensatory pick if they don't sign a topnotch WR or OG in FA in the upcoming offseason. I saw yesterday where a couple of commentators said that they thought the Jets would get a low 1st round pick for Sam. I'd take that. If they waited until close to the trade deadline, they might get more if a team's starter went down or was struggling badly, but they might wind up getting less if Sam didn't play well in preseason. I like Sam and want to see him succeed, sadly I just can't see that happening here any more. I think he needs a change of scenery and a fresh start. That might do more to help him (along with getting good coaching) than anything else. If Gase is back or the Jets hire an equally inept HC, why would you want Sam to have to come back and continue to suffer? He deserves to be someplace better.
Don't forget we were also playing bad teams last year, and that at least partially accounts for the 6-2 finish.
True, but he was also middle of the road against mostly bad teams. He should have been considerably better.
I think that we'll be fine either way. If we get the no. 1 pick then take Lawrence and trust that JD will put the right pieces around him. If miss out on the top pick Darnold has shown enough to trust that he will be a QB with the potential to win with the right supporting cast. JD will continue to build up the talent base of this team and continue drafting a QB every season to eventually supplant him. Essentially I have my trust in JD that we'll be ok either way. This season is rock bottom. Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
While I agree that Darnold has to own some of the responsibility for these problems, they have persisted and become worse because of Gase and the sub-NFL talent around him. Being asked to be a pocket passer when his natural talent is to move and throw on the run; to constantly be under pressure to make up for the shit play calling and execution makes him try to do more than he's capable of doing leading to more mistakes - hell, even the Golden Boy Trevor Lawrence did that against LSU when they fell behind, so this is more the product of a highly competitive athlete over-estimating his own abilities, a very common occurrence. And there is no argument from me that these problems have gotten worse, but unlike those who say "Well he's played three years and he shouldn't have those problems now!", the fact that he's played three years with shitty coaching and lousy talent would absolutely make these problems persist and worsen. I'm no big Sam Darnold fanboy as you know. He can't hold Mahomes's jock, and it's almost criminal that Maccagnan couldn't see that and passed on Mahomes, but Darnold has some unique abilities himself, and under the right coaching and circumstances could win a SB. And I would have no problem if the Jets get the #1 pick and take Lawrence. Great! But that by itself isn't going to fix this shit show, especially if Gase is still the HC.
He might've been considerably better with considerably better play calling and execution around him. Put another way, if Darnold didn't play those games I doubt the Jets win any of them, so in fact he is a difference-maker which is a chief attribute of a potential FQB.
I was watching Darnold at USC, and wondering why can’t the jets get him one day, would be great to have a great QB. Now we have, and because of shit coach and lack of WRs, he has not evolved to that great QB. Not to not pin some on Darnold, but it is disappointing. Let’s not do same thing with Lawrence if we get him! Surely I don’t want to read that book again!?? He was considered the unanimous #1 pick, but Cleveland did not take him surprisingly, so fell to us. Lawrence considered #1 pick next draft. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My two cents. If Gase is still with us, Lawrence will never, ever, achieve his full potential, as it was for Sam, Tanahill and every one else he coached. It would be criminal to keep his sorry ass and his side kick beyond this season of doom.
