Our Problem With The Current 3-4 Scheme.

The 3-4 was better simply b/c it was rare and most teams only played against it once or twice a year. But now a lot of teams are playing it (or at least trying to play it) so it is no longer a "mystry" defense. Like Bill Walsh's "West Coast Offense" that took the NFL by surprise (but no longer scares ppl), the 3-4 will also be a ho-hum defense in 3-4 years.

 

Why would it be a ho hum defense? Teams have been playing the 3-4 for a long time. It's not a mystery, if you have the right personal it can be more effective then a 4-3, but it's difficult to find the players who fit the system. Different coaches come from different coaching trees and utilize the systems they were taught. The WCO is still very effective with the right players. I think as long as nfl teams can find players to play different systems they will play different systems.

 

Holmgren uses the WCO which got the Seahawks to the Superbowl.

Cower uses the 3-4 D which won the Steelers the Superbowl.

it's not about mystery as much as it's about proper personnel and execution.



cheers

 

I completely agree with what the OP is saying. Our two OLB's should be lining up at least a yard and a half to two yards off of the LOS. This will give them some space to generate momentum on a pass rush. More importantly, it will force the offense to make a decision.

Right now the OT or TE merely has to stand up out of his stance and bam - hey have someone to block. If our OLB's were back just a little then they might be unsure if they want to crack down on the DE or step out on the OLB or while making a decision be completely unaware of any stunts or blizting we have going on.

It probably seems like a small thing but I believe it would have a significant impact. And besides - it couldn't be any worse than it currently is.

 

I think the first move the Jets should do with their current 3-4 scheme in the offseason--or, hopefully, this year--is move Vilma to OLB. He's much more suited to roam freely and be the player he used to be in that position.

 

Name me an outside linebacker on a team who runs a 3-4 that is 230 pounds. I'm not being sarcastic, but against the run he would be dominated so badly against a tackle or tight end...

We'll get a better look at the situation once he gets a NT in front of him.

 

I'll be consistent in that I have no issue with a head coach trying to install his scheme when he comes in because all coaches do it. That being said, for someone so new and someone talking about flexibility you would think he'd address things better.

The defense does have some spurts of good play but they are too few and too far between in most games and we got lucky with teams making mistakes.

Now since we didn't expect much this season anyway if this switch helps the team in the long term then these are just growing pains we all need to deal with. Don't have to like 'em, just deal with 'em.

 

Well, yeah..... If a team played strictly 3-4... What everyone fails to keep in mind as they continually try to place simple labels on things.. The GOAL of this defense is to be flexible. Master the 3-4 well enough to use it as a weapon and then also have just about every formation under the sun available when needed.

Depending on the opponent and situation, this team should eventually come out on any given week with us guessing what package and formations will be in store that week....

But, forever, simpletons will sit here and say "The 3-4 blah blah blah"......

Some people should just forget they ever thought they knew what a 3-4 is and enjoy the ride......

 

i read that were trying to implement the 40 defense. its a 3-4 defense, but with an extra guy in there (kindof like the 4-4), usually a safety. in our case, kerry rhodes.

 

This has been my view all along as well. They are looking for smart players who can play many roles well to give them the flexibility to change things up on the fly. Lately they seem to be putting more on the plate for these guys and we are seeing some of them unable to keep up.

But on a side note. All along I have been defending Sutton thinking he needs some time to see how he can get this team playing when he has more players. Recently I caught an interview with him on I believe it was SNY, and I was also lucky enough to be on the sidelines before a recent home game. I have to say, I am a bit nervous about this guy. In the TV interview, he was very reserved and never looked directly at the camera. I noticed the same mannerisms when I was on the sidelines. He is one laid back dude, who does not seem able to easily communicate with people. It's difficult for me to see how this guy can fire up the defensive players to play their best. My fingers are crossed he can get through to these guys.

Disclaimer; I understand I'm not in meetings with the team and that I may be way off here. I also understand that his defensive knowledge may be more important that his ability to motivate, just thought I would share my thoughts....

 

this is where i'm confused: is it the lack of personnel or Sutton or a combination of the two?

obviously we can upgrade at key positions, but Sutton hasn't shown any fire or creativity in the packages. i'm not sure how much of this also falls on Mangini.

Mangini had the option of cleaning house when he was hired. he must have liked something about Sutton to keep him around. but what? i don't know.



cheers

 

What you need is a good NT and Ellis and Kimo need to start playing.

WE have Wilfork, Seymore and Warren on our D-line who r all great players, They make the Backers much better aswel

 

link? or where did you read that?

i'd love to see kerry rhodes moved around more in the defense...im surprised our 3-4 doesnt have more variations and schemes in it, especially considering mangini was with the patriots, whose defense is unique from week to week...maybe it is because of our personel (or lack thereof) or because it is a new defense, but i expected more creative blitzing and match-ups from mangini

 

exactly. and i think a lot of people here beleived the same thing.

maybe Mangini doesn't want to mix things up because we can't even play one package effectively. we witness the atrocity of our 3-4; if you rewatch plays where we were in a 4-3, we still sucked. at this point, i just don't think it matters what scheme we're in.

therefore, i think Mangini wants them to fully learn the 3-4 before he implements other fronts, packages, etc. once they master the 3-4, then they'll be able to mix things up.



cheers

 

Here is the deal w/ the current 3-4 scheme....

There are 2 main issues...

1. Lack of size/physical nature across the entire front 7- It's not just D rob and Vilma. The entire front 7 lacks the neccessary height, "wide base", and strength to be successful. Players like Hobson and Kimo are just getting manhandled in the trenches and in space. In this scheme you have to have acouple guys who can eat up blockers and be physical. Many on here believe you have to have an entire front 7 built that way. But truthfully that isn't the case.

If you watch the Patriots, players like Ty Warren and Richard Seymour may have great size, but they are truthfully more athletic gap shooters, than they are straight up 2 gap defenders. What makes them productive is guys like Vince Wilfork and Jarvis Green(when subbed in) that maintain their ground and display strength which allows the others to be finesse and make plays. The same can be said at the LB position. Players like Bruschi w/ NE and Farrior in Pitt aren't really bulky typical 3-4 lb's..but as previously stated they have enough size and strength around them which allows them to flow to the ball and make plays(IE Larry Foote).

Within this mindset, guys like Vilma and D rob can really help this team. Vilma has the same kind of instincts that Bruschi does, he's maybe 5 lbs lighter and is worlds faster. D rob(although despised by many on this site) is the team's best gap shooter upfront and has improved w/ every game. He has been our best D-lineman by far this year at making plays. If placed at DE w/ a big strong NT next to him, and another 2 gap guy on the other side whom can maintain his ground...D rob will be a very disruptive D-lineman which will give our D another asset. Don't believe me? Watch the tape of the Browns game. There was a 3 or 4 play sequence in which he was placed at DE and Moore was at NT. During that secquence D rob penetrated the backfield on every single snap and was in on every play.

Unfortunately Moore does not have the stamina to play the position for 40-50 plays a game or we'd be much better off. But given a proper replacement, D rob would really help this team at DE. W/ that said, his cap #, consistency for the rest of the year, and attitude will play a part on whether he is here or not next year. Many im sure are calling for his release...Time will tell.

2. Our LB's are overpursuing- This I reckon is being caused by a complete overhaul in scheme mentality. Henderson's scheme was all about using speed to flow to the ball and attacking the line of scrimmage, while this new scheme is more a "Read and react" type thing in which smarts, grit and technique play the biggest part. Not an easy transition.

I believe this will improve w/ time..but right now...this is one of the stems of our Run defense issues. In fact I consider it a bigger problem than the lack of size up front. Ive watched countless plays where our Lbs have been in position to make a play for a 1 or 2 yard gain, and have over ran the play by a good 5 yards.


W/ all this said...this is what we need long term.

1. A true NT- This will allow players like Vilma, Ellis and D rob to shoot gaps and be disruptive.

2. A stout 2 gap LE- Despite what I mentioned above, I'm not sure Ellis fits in this scheme. We need a big strong body who can take on blockers at the POA.

3. A pass rushing/ Hyrbid OLB w/ size- I have no problem w/ BT as he brings a decent pass rush and is usually around the ball..but Hobson is constantly being blown off the ball and really has no place in this scheme. A true hybrid would bring a much needed pass rush, more speed, and better ability against the run.

4. Time- We need to continue to allow guys like Barton and Vilma to make the switch in mentality from "attack" to "read and react". There has obviously been soem growing pains..but I believe this is attainable.


There ya have it...the answer to our 3-4 defensive problems.

 

http://www.jetsinsider.net/forums/showthread.php?t=129411
there you go.

 

3-4 i just cant say enough about how crappy the 3-4 is ......Pats gotta run for 200+ next week probably averge 5yds+/carry........pisses me off just thinking about it........Mangini stop HOPE ing......its NOT working!!! dammit

 

NYjet0511 give it time, in a Few years after a couple of drafts Mangini should build a better D-line, then you will be able to stop the run