Woodhead is a big time weapon coming out of the backfield. He is in and out of his cuts so fast. He would have been a weapon for us if we used him correctly. Garcon is so ridiculously overrated. He had 184 targets. That was the most in the NFL. His 11.9 Avg was mediocre and he only had 5 TDs. Not the impact of an ELITE player. Let's use the following as an example Garcon 184 targets 113 receptions 1346 yds 11.9 avg 5 TDs Player B 154 targets 112 receptions 1243 yds 11.1 avg 6 TDs One is considered elite and one is considered overrated...... Hmmmm.... Player B is Wes Welker's average season w/ the Patriots. not exactly much of a difference is it. In fact, they play a very similar role. How about Garcon's time w/ Manning (not counting 2008) 105 targets 57 receptions 774 yds 13.6 avg 5 TDs. Calling Welker overrated is so stupid anyway... He caught 67 passes from Joey Harrington, Dante Culpepper and Cleo Lemon in 2006. Anyway, that's a separate thing.
it always goes back to Manning b/c you hate the fact that Brady has been by far better than him. Woodhead was a pass catcher out of the backfield for us. we had Leon early in the year before he got hurt, in 2010 we signed LT. he never really had a chance here but again players like that aren't huge talents. so they catch a million dumpoffs- who cares? Brady has had average weapons, Manning elite weapons. Their system which has never worked anywhere except w/ Tom Brady. w/o Welker in the '09 opener rookie Julian Edelman in his first game caught 8 for 98- very welker like. wes welker is nothing special. the same Matt Cassell that led KC to the playoffs 2 years later. and didn't win a thing- congrats. they are perfect b/c of Brady, Brady could take you and I at WR and win. Manning needs elite talent to win. that system has never won a thing w/o Brady either in college or the NFL. who said 2001 was all on Manning? they weren't even last in pts allowed that season. so Peyton's 26 TOs didn't contribute to those poor defensive #s? Tom Brady made the NE Patriots and made BB as a HC, OC's come and go and the results stay the same. players come and go and the results stay the same. ok, Garcon was target a lot in 2013, what about 2011 and 2012? In 2011 only had 15 more targets than 2010 and had 3 more catches and 200 more yds. 2012 he got hurt and only played 10 games but prorating his #s to 16 he would have been targeted 109 times, 71 recs, 1013 yds, 6 TDs. all as good or better than what he did his last year w/ Peyton. he threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs in that 2006 postseason, his D allowed 12.8 PPG in the 4 postseason games and his RBs played very well. obviously he contributed but it's not like he did anything special to lead them there. yep, he was incredible b/c of a throw to Dallas Clark. if the D doesn't pick off McNair on next possession after each of Peyton's 2 INTs their season ends that day. your weak argument is getting so desperate you have to compare him to Mark Sanchez? Peyton was great that 2nd half, his only great half of that entire postseason run. NE D's were never elite. 2001 was closest but that D blew a 14 point 4th qtr lead in the SB before Brady rescued them from that collapse. NE's D's were always overrated, always folded in big spots and the NE D's allowed MORE PPG in postseason than those in INd/Den for Peyton. ah yes dropped passes, always excuses for Peyton the great. that's why he has been one and done and amazing 9 times. You are right Montana and Unitas played against better QBs, Brady only had to deal w/ chokers like Peyton Manning. I know you well enough to know all your Brady bashing is linked to trying to pump up Manning so don't act shocked Manning was brought up.
it is a good question, I apologize for even discussing Manning among the top 5 al time greats. It's clearly a place he doesn't belong.
i didn't say who's overrated or not. garcon is obviously had a successful season without great peyton manning. IMO, you are mistaking talented player vs. system player. there are ton of woodheads/welker level of talent. under 6ft more quick than fast. and when that player has toughness and learn how to run a crisp route and catch football then you have a football player. but nobody will spend top 4 rounds on these type of WRs. if welker stayed with dolphins for a decade, then he would just be a decent 2nd or 3rd option guy and won't even sniff a probowl. but when these guys pair up with elite QBs, their level of play i s elevated and production goes up especially when they become #1 option. is welker overrated? i don't know. but maybe he is overrated because he is a 60-70 rec guy with other QBs. and he wouldn't even sniff HOF. but he would've been a possible HOFer if he played with brady all of his career and consistently produced(100rec). brady just seem to have a good history of elevating level of play of WRs. but brady isn't an equal opportunity thrower. Brady only throws to a guy he trusts. run a wrong route? it p!sses brady off and brady won't even look twice.. for ex. ochocinco was just not bright enough to grasp pats offense for some reason. on the other hand, lafell earned brady's trust and he produced like legit #2 guy - and he looked like he played for pats for 5 years. generally speaking, great QBs make WRs better. randy moss was a lost soul with raiders too. pats loved woodhead because he was fun to watch, tough as nails and he just screamed 'i'm a football player'. but pats know they can find plenty of woodheads in the later rounds. in peyton's case, he did have more weapons. harrison had all time great hands. dudes catches everything. wayne was just good all around from day 1. d thomas is physically gifted. etc, etc. IMO, peyton made them, but he was also given a better players than brady. i can't even imagine what type of stat brady would've put up if brady had colts' weapon in those SB era. but like they say, brady got the rings, and peyton got the stats.
I'm not mistaking anything. Welker is a system player in that he was utilized correctly by the Patriots. He was the perfect player for their system. Just like Edelman is, just like Troy Brown was. Welker has elite skills however, that not many other players can match. His quickness in and out of breaks was unequalled. Yeah, he probably wouldn't have been the type of player had he stayed in Miami. That has a lot to do with the nonsense that was going on there from Culpepper as QB to the HC changes to not running a system that was ideal for his skill set. None of this takes away from Welker's skills and that he was a dominant slot/inside receiver. There wasn't a better slot receiver in the entire NFL during his NEP years.
I never mentioned Manning. Not once. You did. It’s your obsession. Woodhead was a pass catcher for the NYJ? What are you basing this off of, all 8 of his NYJ receptions? Woodhead was used correctly by the NEP because he was matchup hell for any LB. That’s what the Patriots do with their offense. They present terrible matchups for the defense and exploit them. You continue to bring up who had elite players and who didn’t. No one of any significance cares about that. It’s all about how you are within the system. The Patriots have acquired guys who are perfect for their offense. Welker was the best Slot receiver in the NFL. Gronk has been the best TE. Hernandez was a nightmare. They had Moss, Dillon thru the years as well. They had many other players that were perfect for what they do on offense. The Patriots when they have the right players are extremely difficult to defend. And none of this takes away from the things Brady does well. It’s just complete nonsense that he hasn’t had talent. What system was Matt Cassel in 2 years later? Oh, that’s right… The Patriots system w/ Charlie Weis as OC… Shocker They had the best years of their careers. That’s undisputable. Yeah, Manning needs elite talent to be successful…. BWAHAHAHAHAHA Garcon has been an average receiver his entire career. He’s nothing special. He’s had some great fantasy stats though. Manning made plays when his team needed him to in the 2006 postseason. That is undeniable. I don’t care about fantasy numbers. The 3 INTs against KC didn’t hurt them and other than that he was basically flawless in that game. One of the INTs was on Harrison for running his hot route incorrectly. I’ll post screen shots for you if you need them. He made huge throws against Balt when they needed them and was outstanding in the 2H. His defense FINALLY stepped up that postseason run as well. Shocker, that he won when the entire team decided to show up That great throw to Dallas Clark ended the game. I thought key moments mattered to you? Maybe it’s just a Manning-Hate thing. Nah, I don’t have a weak argument. Just pointing out you inconsistencies over the years. The 2001 NEP defense blew a lead that a) they gave the team and b) against one of the best offenses of all-time. It’s to be expected that they wouldn’t be able to continue shutting them down after carrying the team the entire game. You said Manning had elite talent, I just wanted to know why an elite receiver would drop 3 passes? Do you really have a reading comprehension issue? If my Brady bashing (which I wasn’t doing) was meant to pump up Manning, then I would have mentioned Manning in my posts. Reading comprehension really is an issue for you.
no welker isn't elite. Elite players are game breaking players who demands double teams and they dominate games. jerry rice. michael irvin. calvin johnson. randy moss. prime larry fitz. those are elite players. they can thrive with anybody. because they can't be contained. there aren't many of them in the league. you can't categorize edelman or welker as elite. they are good players with good fit. they can only thrive in a right situation with a right QB. i'm sure welker can be a 50-70 catch guy with many other QBs. but 100 rec? i would say there aren't more than 6-7 of them. you have to remember, there are only 1 football and several WRs on a team.
charlie weis is a pats system? didn't know that. didn't know KC was NE either. cassel never directly played with weis until he met weis in kc. and good OCs make QBs better. nothing new. but brady went through many OCs. so it's not like brady was with weis for 15 years. and i'm sure pats OCs all have similar but different styles. BB is all about D, but he is also about adapting to player's best skillset. 'pats offensive system' is essentially 'brady offensive system' because knowing BB, i'm sure he wouldn't try anything but the style that helps his QB. if you ever watched cassell in 08 and 10, you know there was some talent. he has quick fit, and he is a big boy. his arm was adequate back then.(right now it looks kinda shot). but he was no elite. far from it. pats were lucky to win 11 game that year. they had a loaded cast. cassel was playing with loaded weapons that year in a very weak schedule. i have no doubt in my mind pats would've gone to SB again with healthy brady that year. bottomline, 'BB won with a scrub!' argument holds no weight because cassell played with a completely different team with different casting and played reasonably well (10-5 27tds 7ints). with NE, he ran alot because he panicked alot. dude was very panicky. that's why he got sacked 47 times. as he matures and had more games under his belt he became better at not getting a sack and just stay in the pocket. you will notice a significant sack drop in 2010. their oline play was better and cassel became much better at managing the game. but bowe was awesome that year. if they brought breaston year early and play with cassel in 2010, cassel would've produced better. they had a #1 WR, but they really didn't have #2 or #3 WR that year. so cassel argument really doesn't work against brady. at the end of the day, brady threw twice more TDs and won 7 more games than cassel did. and it's not like brady is a flash in the pan. brady played well for 15 years. no system can sustain such greatness unless they have a QB who can play. after all, this is a QB league.
Dude, are you clueless? Did the Patriots offensive system change when Weis left and when it went to McDaniels in 06? No, it didn't. I don't even bother reading the rest of your stuff because you have repeatedly shown yourself to be clueless
Yeah, okay pal. He was the BEST SLOT RECEIVER DURING HIS ERA. It wasn't even close. The 100 receptions was because he was such a mismatch versus his defender. NE's passing game is largely an extension of the running game. STOP WITH THIS ELITE NONSENSE. It doesn't matter. It matters how you fit in within the system! GEEZUS FUKIN CHRIST you guys are fucking clueless.
obviously he wouldn't have been the best slot WR in his era if he stayed with dolphins. IMO, brady had alot to do with welker's success. you are mistaking a production vs. talent. let's say cecil short was a pat. could he get 100 rec? probably if he can pick up the playbook and earn brady's trust. bottomline, welker was a very good player, but never was elite. i never once thought welker was a top 10 WR when he was a pat. so he is overrated if people ever thought he was a HOF caliber player. because he isn't.
so you are saying mcdaniels is charlie weis' protege? cool. but then why mcdaniels was allergic to run the ball especially in the beginning? i guess pats ran weis system past few years. lol pats O arguably changed more than any team in the NFL in past decade because pats probably had the most personnel change. it was a revolving door. and changes started to happen in 05 because pats know a dominant run game was going away and they relied on brady more and more. it's logical because brady by then was a seasoned veteran. and throughout the year only system you see is a system of success. why? because of tom brady. but there is no 1 particular 'system' because brady can adapt to what he was dealt. you are in a denial if you think there is such thing as 'pats offensive system'. if there is a such a thing then it's called 'putting players in a right situation so they can succeed in brady's system'. repeat after me - BRADY IS THE SYSTEM so when you have this system called TOM BRADY, more likely than not players will be successful. charlie weis? lol. where is he now?
brady is elite no matter who he plays with. peyton is elite no matter who he plays with. playing with scrub? still elite playing will probowlers? still elite but welker? edelman? stokley? emmanuel sanders? decker? these good players are dependent on the surroundings. they don't make QBs better. HOF QBs made them better.
been watching football since i was a little kid, my friend. and i'm not a pats fan. i'm not even from there. mcdaniels who was coming into his own started to experiment in that period. weis system? lol pats didn't run the ball like they used to, and confident brady started to be in a shotgun more and more. the offensive identity has gradually changed. pats are pioneers and they started to see the trend. this is the period where brady would've won mvps easily had he had some decent weapons. you can win with deion branches troy browns of the world. but you can't win mvps with them. because mvps have to put up stats. even though pats relied on brady's arm, results were mediocre(by his lofty standards) because well when you are throwing to reche caldwell what do you expect. that's why they pushed hard to get randy moss following year and rest is the history. if weis stayed in 05 06, pats O would've stayed the same. they probably would've gotten a young horse because riding a horse worked with weis. but if you look at weis career after pats, he didn't evolve. weis system my a$$.
Don't forget Google and Pro Football Reference.com. This child was born the year Montana came into the league, 3 when Marino came in and 4 when Elway came in. He can lecture chapter and verse how much better Brady was (not) than them. That'd be like me pontificating about George Blanda. _
