Honestly, we had one of the leagues best defense's the past couple of years when we were in a 4-3. Sure you could mix in a little 3-4 as a change of pace, but why change it completely? Play to the strengths and slowly integrate a 3-4 as you rebuild the defense. Keep the base a 4-3 for the time being, though.
The problem right now is that teams are not afraid to throw the ball. The secondary is fine, but there is no one that gets pressure on the passer outside Ellis who is double teamed on passes anyway. Oelhoffen has looked horrible all together as has Robertson. Thomas is good against the run, but he doesn't have nearly the pass rushing skills a rushbacker should have. It sucks sure, but we may be spending a top pick on someone to play the weak outside linebacker position and move Thomas to the strongside to stuff the run. Rashad Moore absolutely needs to be in on 50-75% of the plays with Robertson at defensive end in place of Von Oelhoffen who should only be used to give the lineman a break. Hamilton should be rotated in when Robertson moves to nose tackle to give Moore a break.
That makes sense but if that's the case why not put Moore in the middle with D"Rob and let Thomas or Ball play end and let Thomas rotate with Ball and Hobson.
That's my feeling too. The only issue I have w/ Mangini and the 3-4 is that we passed on some ideal 3-4 type players in the draft.
Don't hold your breath on that hunch. The OLBs are usually the stars on 3-4 defenses not the ILBs. Teddy Bruschi gets a lot of attention because he is the heart and sole of a 3 times championship defense not because he is leading the league in tackles and sacks.
Bruschi, Donnie Edwards and Ray Lewis are all smaller ILB's who've had great careers. We'd have the same problems in a 4-3 as the 3-4. We'd magically get a pass rush by having Bryan Thomas put his hand down? I don't buy it. And I've said it a bunch of times, but remember when it was Robertson and Reed at DT and everyone was worried about blockers getting to Vilma? Well that was a 4-3 and was still an issue. The media likes to blow it out of proportion but facts are the two systems aren't that different. The defense has a couple holes to fill regardless of what formation they're in.
Sure is alot of complaints for a defense that is playing alright football so far. Our passrush is the only thing to be concerned about. Once we find a monster NT the whole thing will work. Vilma can be good in any system, that is what special players do.
Thomas lines up on the strong side the majority of the time w/ hobson (I rather see Chatham there) on the weak side. Thomas will line up on the weak side occasionally on definite passing downs. Tui's and Sione's injuries really hurt because even if Moore plays most of the downs we still will have to spell him w/ Robertson and Kimo. Plus I don't believe Moore has the conditioning to play 75% of the snaps. Next year I think we will be fine at NT w/ Rashad, Tui and Sione. We will be fine at LDE w/ Ellis, Hamilton and Ball (I think he's better suited on the left-side). I think the big area of concern will be as, it is right now, the RDE spot. Kimo has looked old and Ball, because of his size, is used mostly on passing downs for pass rushing purposes. The RDE is usually the bigger of the 2 DEs and the guy who creates the opportunities for the ROLB to get all those sacks. This position is even more important for the Jets because this is the DE that lines up in front of Vilma. IMO this is the most unheralded and toughest position to find quality players for in the 3-4. The Pats have the best one in the game in Seymore. Knowing all this, I really hoped we had drafted this guy in the 06 draft: Name: Anthony Montgomery School: Minnesota Position: DT/3-4 DE Height: 6'5" Weight: 305 lbs Summary: Montgomery is a strong and athletic defensive tackle with the rare ability to be an impact player as a 2-Gap stay-at-home defensive tackle or as an explosive gap-shooting defensive tackle. He needs to improve his consistency playing with leverage and aggressiveness in order to consistently play up to his ability in the NFL because right now he is not nearly as effective at the point of attack when he gets up high and is not aggressive with his hands. What you have to like most about Montgomery is that, unlike most very athletic defensive tackles, he consistently hustles and chases hard after the ball from snap to whistle -- usually his hustle is seen more in over-achieving defensive tackles who are limited athletically. He is going to be a high draft pick because he offers the versatility to be very productive in any type of defense and will be able to start and contribute early in his career -- he will be just as effective playing defensive tackle in a 4-3 defense or defensive end in a 3-4 defense. He will be able to make an impact rushing the passer, on inside runs and chasing down ball carriers on runs away. He is currently 3rd in Washington's depth chart and can probably still be had for nothing.
Not trying to be an a$$ but Brushi and Lewis are about 250 lbs. That's not small for any LB inside or outside. Edwards is really the only true example of a smaller ILB playing the 3-4. It is important to note that Edwards did not begin his career in the 3-4 and really hasn't been the same dominant player since the switch.
It is a matter of opinion. Some say his best season ever was a couple of years ago when he had all those INTs and put up alot of tackles. I guess you disagree with that though. That's how it is with defense though... Never a unnanimous decision on every individual's play. You'll always hear half the crowd saying buddy needs to go and the other praising him.
First, I'd last to say that this is a really good thread, with many insightful posts. Differing opinions, discussed in a very respectful, civilized manner. If only every thread were like this one! Mangini is a died in the wool 3-4 guy. He only ran two 4-3 fronts last Sunday. (Thomas in a stance on both occassions). While I agree I think it would be better to mix in more 4-3 fronts, for THIS year, in the long term it seems to me that Mangini will use this year to determine which players fit HIS system, and not run a D that fits present personnel. Even though they refuse to admit it, let's face it again.... this IS a rebuild year, and Mangini is determined to run a 3-4 in the long term. I heard Vilma on with J Benningo (sp?) and he said he isn't comfortable in the system yet.... he compared it to the transition from high school to college ball. A LOT to learn, and he isn't there yet. Vilma is a VERY smart football player... if he hasn't made the adjustment yet, my guess is that most of the holdovers haven't either. He also talked about the new offensive system, and how the team is still working on getting it right. I don't think the 3-4 lends itself to big play LB's. As much as people scoffed at the notion when I first mentioned it.... I still wonder if Vilma isn't better suited to the OLB spot in a 3-4. B Thompson one side, Vilma on the other. That would generate some serious pass rush pressure when they go, in my mind. I think Hobson is better suited to the ILB spot as well. I see two perspectives in this thread.... some posters who are thinking about this year, and others who are looking at next year, and 2008. I fall into the later category. I think Mangini does too, even if he won't admit it's a rebuilding year. I could see DRob getting traded.... and a bunch of other rather "big" moves next year. In the meantime.... I got sucked into a bet that I staked the Jets going 2-2 in the next 4 games.... and I'm pretty sure that money is gone.
I see Robertson replacing Kimo at DE once he leaves. Moore will see more time at NT. we all know were built for a 4-3 right now. this is no surprise.
The thing about ILB though, is Vilma would be making all the defensive calls, and for a player as intelligent as Vilma, that's a great reason to have him play the position. That's also the reason Bruschi is considered the heart and soul of the pat's LBs. Could Vilma make the calls as an OLB? I guess, but I've never heard of that being the case on any team. It seems to be the ILB's job.
Yes our D is struggling because of the transition but these guys we are playing aren't exactly the finished product. I'm sure the 3-4 will be fine when tangini bring in the players they want to play in the system. It takes more than 1 offseason to do so.
I'm sorry when did Joe Klecko become an expert on defenses?? because he played defense for the Jets..Give me a break..in Mangini we trust..I'm putting my faith in EM because as far as I can see he is doing a great job to this point and the 3-4 is the future in the NFL.
were building a foundation . i dont see the point in second guessing the coach in week 2. im fine with 3-4 defense just like any other new scheme added to the team it takes time to learn. robertson is the only real weakness i see in the 3-4 defense so far. even with that said vilma still had 12 tackles in week 1. once we get a true beast at NT our linebackers will be fine. fact is the last 2 super bowl winners ran 3-4 defense. its a great defense to scheme from very confusing to qbs. we arent going to win a sb this year we are building for the future. with each game guys are gonna improve . you guys talk about we should be running a 4-3 well going by last year we werent that great robertson and reed where both getting abused in the run game see KC game.
I totally agree, I've been thinking that for a couple of weeks as well. It's worth a shot, we have others who can hold down the fort in the middle. We're really lacking a speedy pass rusher. Either way, I'd like to see more 4-3 this weekend to see if that works better against the run. I like the 3-4 but I agree with everyone here that we don't have the right people for it.
i would hope they are using the 34 exclusively to get the personell used to it and see who can function in it and what they will need to address. this is not a playoff team this year, its more like an extended mini camp. only that we have to watch it on tv.
I applaud Mangini, and his ways. It just seems to me that he is giving his "go to" defensive players the chance to gain experience with the 3-4 this year. That way they know what to expect going into training camp next year, since I am assuming that this season is STILL a rebuilding season. Only we are looking so much better than a "re-building" team should look, it is still the mind set. IMO
