I have to say in today's NFL talent is overrated. It used to drive me nuts when Herm used to complain about not having talent. If you have a coach that complains about talent then you have a bad coach. I have never believed that NE had the most talented team. I always did believe that they got the most out of the guys they had and the synergy they created far exceeded the talent on their team. I am starting to get the impression that Mangini understands this. I love the fact the Kendall left with an injury yesteray and Norm "nobody" Katnick steps in and we don't skip a beat. Essentially 3 rookies and 1 new guy. The only guy with from last year left was Moore. Last year we could never have pulled this off and it would have been our excuse not to win. This is the same reason that up in NE they plug unknown guys into their secondary and win superbowls. This is a very encouraging sign.
yes and no, it is tough to win in this league if your QB sucks. this is why what the ravens did in 2000 is so impressive
Not really. There are plenty of examples of mediorce QBs that have won. Dilfer, Johnson, Warner just to name a few. Kerry Colins even got there and we all saw first hand how he is the other day.
If Talent is the only basis to win then in the past 5 years the Foreskins are the champs. since 1999 i believe they signed 19 former probowlers ... and non of them made it yet as a Foreskin
yeh hasn't he won 2 league MVP's? but anyway i kinda agree with u. our superbowl teams only had few real superstars. take away Milloy, Law, Brady, Harrison, Vrabel, Seymore and Brady and the team had no superstars (and some of these guys didn't play together), but i believe that they still cud perform pretty well if u replace them with a decent player(we wud not have won the SB, but still could have made playoffs)
Considering the league isn't that great and almost 40% of the teams make the playoffs, I agree a well coached but limited talent team can make the playoffs. The Pats during their SB runs have had if not the most talented team at worst top 3 talent. When you have the best QB in the league and the best Defensive player in the league you have a foundation of greatness. Coaching is very important but you still need the horses. The Pats would not have won a SB with Brady or Seymour.
Oooh...maybe tone down the rethroic and turn up the tolerance. Warner was good with Vermeil only and had flat out failed in every other system he has been in besides Vermeil's. So you can think he was great for a couple years but he is certainly not top 20 NFL QB historically.
I mostly agree with what you say. The only thing I question is weather those players are greater becasue the coach and the system force/allow/enable them to be great. I wonder if there greatness would be the same or dimished on a differnt team or in a different system. The point that I am looking to make is that when all the players have a coach and a system that demands them to do certain things I think it makes the cream rise to the top and talent becomes less of an issue. I think we are going to see some players who we though were not great become great in Mangini's system. Kind of the way people thought we had no talent when we were 1-16 under Kotite and then Parcells took much of that same talent the next year and made them 9-7.
Vermeil retired after the 1999 season. Warner was a league MVP with Vermeil as his head coach and later with Martz as his head coach. If someone wants to say it is the same system or close to the same system (after all Martz was the OC in 1999) they would be correct. I also would contend he's doing well in Dennis Green's system. Pretty good last year and obviously had a good game on Sunday to start off his second year there.
Yes, he did. Under Vermeil's system. And he has not come near to reproducing it. So it really kind of bolsters my arguement that the system/coach is produces /enhances talent.
Why don't you give me a list of all the prolific QB's Vermiel and Martz coached that ever did what Warner did. Warner came into the league at 27 not 23. He was thrown into the mix as a starter in 99 at 28 years old with exactly 1 game of pro experience the year before. He had one of the greatest years in NFL football history that year including league MVP and SB champion. He was a great trigger man on a very good football team one that never came close to being a contender with any one other than Warner. In fact if it wasn't for the system Warner would have won 2 SB not one. The coaching staff blew the 2001 SB because Martz far from being a genius was a horse?s ass. The same Martz who was fired as HC and is now the OC of the Lions who put 6 points on the board last week while Warner was throwing for 3 TD's and his team was putting up 34 points in their opening game. Warner didn't produce after he left St. Louis because he has a chronic thumb injury. It's the reason he was effectively dumped by St. Louis and moved on. He was cannon fodder on a horrible Giants team with no OL and still was 20 times better than Manning. If the Giants had kept Warner on this Giant team and he was healthy they would be a legitimate SB contender this year. The dumped him because they were committed to Manning and he's thumb wasn't healed up. The guy was forced out by injury, when healthy he was as good as it gets. Warner coming into the league at 27 and with 3 healthy years as a starter is one of 3 current NFL QB's who are currently legitimate HOF candidates.
System, Smhystem. Warner had Faulk, Bruce, Holt, Hakim and Proehl in their prime, and the # 1 pick in the draft playing LT (Pace) watching Warners blind side. Bruce dropped off a little after 2000, Faulk dropped off completely soon after. It was the players, and Warner was one of em too. The guy was awesome till he hurt his thumb. The guy could fade back and put a 20 yard pass right on the money time after time
Ok, so then I guess you think they had more talent than the Pats when Belicheks widely acknowleged team of lesser talent (but better system) beat them in the following superbowl?
Yes in that case the second most talented team won. Same thing when the Giants beat the Bills in the SB. In both cases the Offensive systems of hurry up and not using the clock and running enough killed those two teams. In both cases bad coaching decissions kept those teams from winning. To say those teams were merely products of a system and not talented still is way off.
I think it was rated correctly. I think that their system and coach is so effective in getting the most from their players that it makes the player look and perform better than they normally would. I think that is what we may have in Mangini and I think it is a really good thing.
They had the best QB in football, one of the best DEs, one of the best LBs, one of the best DBs, the best K, a top OL, a very good P. They had exceptional talent, it's underrated b/c people think Belichick did it w/ coaching but where did that coaching get him in Cle? You need players to win big.
