Tebow voted the most over rated player in the league - player poll

Discussion in 'Tebowmania' started by Barcs, Oct 25, 2012.

  1. phaytal

    phaytal New Member

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    'All morons hate it when you call them a moron.' - J. D. Salinger
     
  2. Concerned_Citizen

    Concerned_Citizen New Member

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    I applaud elway for having the balls to stand up to the media driven Tebowmania machine and make the right decision. It took signing Manning to mitigate that and keep it from becoming a full scale riot, but even that didn't quell the anger of giving up on the Tebow.

    We could have been stuck dragging that experiment out for years while we watched the Tebowkistanis blame everyone but him for another year of three-and-out hell.

    ..and yet, Tebow can't crack a starting lineup. Really, people... all that fuss over a high school caliber passer who can't read defenses very well. I just don't get it.
     
  3. CowboysFan

    CowboysFan Banned

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    Yo didn't answer it .

    Do you agree or disagree ?
     
  4. phaytal

    phaytal New Member

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    No, I don't believe he deserves as much credit as the defense and special teams. I think any quarterback capable of shitting the bed for the first 55 minutes of every game could have accomplished the same thing.

    He gets credit for improving the running game. That's it.
     
  5. Concerned_Citizen

    Concerned_Citizen New Member

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    I've seen dozens of posts from you saying the same thing. It's not that I don't see them, it's that I just don't agree with it.

    I think just about ANY starting QB, and maybe a few backups could have done it.

    yes, I think Orton could have too. When Tebow took over, offensive production and scoring actually went down. They stopped moving the ball, and led the league in three and outs. Sure, they ran better, but coudln't pass aside from a few good strikes.

    The ONLY reason it worked is because the defense kept the point totals from the other teams down in most of those games. Without it, all those miracles people are putting on the shoulders of Tebow simply don't happen.

    I simply give more credit for the guys that kept them in the games for 55 minutes while the Tebow led offense stunk it up all over the place, than I do for the guy that finally did something when teams dropped back into the prevent. Yes, he was part of it, but gets far too much credit IMO.

    For example, you just gave him a third of the credit in that post. The defense, special teams, ...and Tim Tebow. you didn't say offense, you said Tim Tebow was the third piece. He had 10 other guys on the field with him. Willis McGahee also played a role in revitalizing the run game when we were used to guys like Knowshon. DaMarius Thomas played a huge role in the comeback, and beating Pittsburgh simply doesn't happen without his efforts. neither does some of the comebacks.

    So no, Tim Tebow doesn't get every bit the same amount of credit for the entire defense that kept them in the games... or the special teams department who put up enough field goals to win a game against teams scoring 10 points. He gets credit for being a part of the offense that did just enough to eke out some miraculous finishes against mediocre teams. Otherwise, beating teams that only score 10 - 13 points isn't something only Tebow could have done.
     
    #125 Concerned_Citizen, Oct 26, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  6. CowboysFan

    CowboysFan Banned

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    I think if you view what you say in a vacuum your post could be considered reasonable but you can't view it in a vacuum. You say Orton could have done the same thing but he was 6-22 as a starter in previous 28 games with Tebow at QB the Broncos ( as a team) won More games than the 2 1/2 previous years combined under Orton so by any logical measure there is more proof that what I am saying is indeed correct versus what you are saying .

    My comment about Tebow has to be taken in context . Of course there are 53 other players on a team but when viewed in context I am specifically talking about what changes took place that led to the turn around . Tebow was a big change because it also led the offense to change it's scheme and I did speak about that .
     
  7. Concerned_Citizen

    Concerned_Citizen New Member

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    Yes, Orton was 6-22 as a starter in 28 games. But you keep missing the point I have given you numerous times, which I think you are doing on purpose because it doesn't fit your template that believes Tebow is actually a good QB due to his record.

    Does the following point I make have merit or not. You and others seem to totally ignore it and attack Orton again.

    5 or Tebow's 7 wins came when the defense scores 15 points or less. Kyle Orton is 23-2 under those circumstances. Most QBs in the league have a pretty stellar record too when that happens. Trent Dilfer won a superbowl with a team that averaged less than that per game, yet nobody on this planet mistakes him for being a good QB, or even a guy that accomplished what few other QBs could have under those circumstances. Same for Brad Johnson in Tampa a couple years later.

    On the flipside, when Orton went 6-22 in 28 games (conveniently left out the 6-0 start to make your numbers better for your argument) most of those games the defense allowed 28-30 points per game. How many quarterbacks in this league have a stellar record when that happens? (6-0 start came on the heels of a defense that stopped allowing points, which further reinforces my argument that the defense had more to do with the win-loss record than the QB did.)

    So yeah, I don't see why it is hard for you to understand why I think winning most of those games wasn't something only Tebow could have done, or that Orton was guaranteed to lose games Tebow had been on the winning side in. Just about every QB in this league who has started more than a couple games has an awesome record when a defense performs the way Tebow enjoyed during his starts.

    Be honest, what do you think Tebow's record would have been in the Orton era with the defense performing the way they did?

    This is why taking the win loss record at face value and attributing it to one person in comparison as if it were a one on one tennis record is a horribly stupid argument when there are 21 other guys on the field at any given time.

    I fully expect you to ignore that argument above though. Cuz you know damn well an honest response to it would destroy your argument.

    Like I said, the defense had a lot more to do with the win-loss record than the QB did. If you wanna say the team might have been fine then with Tebow if the defense improved, I'll listen to THAT argument. But to sit there and say like many do that he's the reason the team went anywhere just sounds like a lot of Tim Tebow myopia to me.

    Come on man, I know you guys are smarter than that.
     
    #127 Concerned_Citizen, Oct 26, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  8. phaytal

    phaytal New Member

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    You should just copy and paste this in to the quote list you keep of me. You are a broken record. You didn't want us to answer the question, you wanted to spark a debate in which you say the same fucking thing you've been saying for a year now.

    Well guess what have happened in that year; Tebow was dealt to the Jets for a Diet Coke and a Clark Bar, because no one else in the league wanted him, he is no threat to win the Jets' starting job, and the fans in New York are quickly getting sick of everything Tebow.

    So please, remind us again of how Orton went 6-22 (conveniently leaving out the 6 straight win he posted before that), and that Tebow revitalized the Denver franchise. Really, we are starting to believe you...
     
  9. CowboysFan

    CowboysFan Banned

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    Speaking of broken record , I read what your saying but keep hearing 3 blind mice playing in the background .

    Oh and I will include it from now on 12-22 is a real shitty record anyway , I'll give you that one . But this also means that this should not be used" Tebow went 1-4 in his last 5 starts ...." that's why I parsed it back.

    Orton 12-22
    Tebow 8-5
     
    #129 CowboysFan, Oct 26, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  10. phaytal

    phaytal New Member

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    Yep, they were both shitty quarterbacks. Tebow just had the luxury of a cushy schedule and a better defense. He didn't beat one team with a winning record except for the injury ravaged Steelers.

    The one thing that they have in common is that they are now both backups. Every GM in the NFL can see that both Tebow and Orton suck. Why cant you?
     
  11. CowboysFan

    CowboysFan Banned

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    You are giving Tebow hadly any credit as usual, lets set that aside

    But I am not saying he should be the starter . Please find me one post where I said that .

    In the Texans game I feel he should have gotten the last drive and in the NE game I feel he should have gotten the ball at 3rd and 2 from the 3.

    That's about the most I have said ( besides wanting him to be used more effectively on an ongoing basis )
     
  12. Concerned_Citizen

    Concerned_Citizen New Member

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    I see you won't challenge my post on how those records came to be.

    Still just gonna take those at face value, huh?
     
  13. Slap

    Slap New Member

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    Tebow fans = NFL Taliban.
     
  14. Potzer

    Potzer New Member

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    Taliban, riiight.

    There are striking similarities between liking a player, and committing acts of terrorism.

    Tebow in the NFL is good for the NFL. It makes the haters and the supporters both interested.
     
  15. danangmarine68

    danangmarine68 New Member

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    Brilliant, resorting to name calling. Perhaps you, Phatyal, and Concerned_Citizen can find a local pub where you could go and pat each other on the back and trade your misguided ideologies. You could even form a Tebow fan haters group provided this pub has no WI-FI hookup. That way you could drown all this self inflicted misery you display on this forum in a good bottle or two.

    Semper Fi
     
  16. CowboysFan

    CowboysFan Banned

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    As far a the defense playing for Orton

    of course I can but then I would have to start digging up post on Bailey and Von Miller and Dawkins saying that Tebow made the team gel (paraphrasing) changed the identity of the team into one that had a never say die attitude.

    it is not unusual for any QB to do that (help mold the identity of a team) but from a T-haters stand point it impossible for Tebow to have done it,

    And of course intangibles would have to come up , speaking to a T-hater about intangibles can only end one way...with the T-haters head exploding.

    I don't want any harm to come to you.
     
    #136 CowboysFan, Oct 26, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  17. CowboysFan

    CowboysFan Banned

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    edit**************
     
    #137 CowboysFan, Oct 26, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  18. Coach K

    Coach K New Member

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    ive gone on record as saying I dont think Tebow is a franchise QB. and ive said he has the potential but is a good 2-3 yrs away from that even if hes given the reins. ive also gotten into it with some of the people who live in this forum sub section.


    all this being said, Tebow needs to get on the field more. let this guy run the fucking ball. I see no point in having the distraction that comes with Tebow if your not gonna feed him the ball on short yardage and Red zone situations.

    instead they decide to screw with Sanchez rhythm to give him random carries in between the 20's.

    or Tebow makes a nice run in the red zone and instead of just ramming him down the defense throat 3 more carries they take him out.


    I may not see him as the answer at QB but i like what he can do as a playmaker and the Jets simply arent using him lol.
     
  19. Potzer

    Potzer New Member

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    ^^^ Facts.

    I might slightly disagree that Tebow isn't ready to be a starter in the NFL. There will be +'s and -'s to doing that. I feel Sanchez and Tebow are a coin flip as far as giving the team a better chance to win.

    However! If we're going to keep the circus of having both in town. You gotta use him in situations you know he's good for.
     
  20. Concerned_Citizen

    Concerned_Citizen New Member

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    So you're tryign to tell me based on a couple of happy quotes about Tebow rom some players, that had he been the starter in the 2 years Orton played... the defense would have stopped giving up 28 points a game and brought it down to enough to win with 16 points?

    Be honest, what would Tebow's record have been for the two years prior?

    You're really going to tell me his aura and positive thinking would have motivated the defense THAT much? ...and you guys wonder why I think some overrate Tebow... :rolleyes:
     

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