Their pass game was their run game and they managed ok in the snow 3 years earlier. I can't see us winning tat game under any circumstances but again I wish we had the shot. Throwing for 400 yds doesn't tell us if a QB had a good game or not, QBs throwing for that much usually means they are trailing and have to throw. Mark played excellent football in the playoffs something O'Brien never did. O'Brien played for some bad teams in the late 80s/early 90s but he played for some great teams(talent wise) in the mid 80s. he was drafted on a team that just lost in the title game and was SB faves in his rookie year, he had boatloads of talent and still couldn't win a playoff game-and couldn't win a playoff game in Cle where he was handed the lead in the game by Pat Ryan. AGAIN, Kenny took most of those sacks. He had good OLs, good running games, GREAT options in the pass game. 4 playoff wins trumps anything Kenny did. Our D wasn't great in 2010 and neither was our run game yet we made the title game again. O'Brien had Freeman McNeil, Johnny Hector, Al Toon, Wesley Walker, Mickey Shuler and a good OL in a weak era for AFC teams unlike today where we have so many good teams to deal w/ including a dynasty team in our division. Not a chance but if Chad had played on kenny's team I guarantee you we win more playoff games and probably make a SB. You guys keep bringing up sacks w/o realizing he took most of the sacks b/c he was an all or nothing guy. You guys wants stats? Playoff stats: O'Brien(3 games, 3 different postseasons): 45-67, 504 yds, 2 TDs, 4 INTs, 74.5 rating, 0-3 record, led O to an average of 14.6 PPG(and that's including Pat Ryan leading the Jets in the first half of the Cle game so it's actually less than this #) Sanchez(6 games, 2 postseasons): 95-157, 1155 yds, 9 TDs, 3 INTs, 94.3 rating, 4-2 record, led O to an average of 20 PPG
Junc thanks for the stats from completely different eras and in way different situations/ games, etc. I prefer to open my damn eyes. Anyone can see Kenny O. in his prime was better than Pennington and way way better than Sanchez, don't be dumb. I would expect these shenanigans from some of the younger posters who can only hang their hats on the current era but not from you, a guy who has seen Kenny O. play. I know you loved your boy Pennington but come on man.
Where do you get some of this stuff? You cannot say the '85 Jets had a good OL despite Kenny taking 62 sacks AND argue that Sanchez took 39 sacks on a poor OL. Sanchez doesn't even approach AVERAGE in pocket presence. Here's some rebuttals about how good the 2010 team was: The 2010 Jets defense was 3rd overall in total and run defense. Do you have to be #1 to say it was a great D? Second fewest yards per drive. Most forced punts per drive, 3rd most forced fumbles per drive. The rushing offense was excellent considering how poor our passing threat was. 4.4 YPC, 148.4 yards per game, which was good for the 4th best rushing offense. That's not counting a few other details. We had the best kick return game in the league. Steve Weatherford quietly until shanking a few in the playoffs, had one of the better punting seasons in HISTORY. 42 punts inside 20. 20 punts inside 10. FOUR touchbacks. 2nd best starting field position in the league (32.7 yard line). 5th best opponent starting field position (as in best for us, 27.5 yard line). We excelled in EVERY FACET except passing. And we were 8th best in sack rate allowed, so don't even try the O Line. In summary: The 2010 New York Jets had a top 5 defense, a top 5 running game, an excellent receiving corps, excellent pass protection, probably the best overall special teams unit... and we didn't win our DIVISION let alone the Super Bowl. Why? Mark Sanchez. Sorry guys. Plus, I've gone into good detail in the past that the offense did more damage in our loss to the Steelers that year than the defense did, despite common held belief.
You guiys are the ones posting stats, I posted the playoff #s since you guys kept posting reg season #s which you didn't seem to have a problem w/. Kenny was my favorite player but I realize he wasn't nearly as good as I thought when I was a kid. You guys see the highlights of the great deep passing which O'brien was excellent at but forget how he held the ball too long, took sacks that he didn't have to, didn't step up in postseason. That stuff is more important than a QB rating. Ken inherited some incredibly talented teams and never won a playoff game in a very weak era for the AFC. as fas as Ken vs. Chad? Not even close, I'd trust Chad over Kenny any day. All ken had over Chad was arm strength and throwing the deep ball but there's more to being a good QB than that. Every healthy year we made the playoffs w/ Chad while we sucked when he got hurt.
I absolutely can and I do say we had a good OL. Freeman Mcneil averaged 4.5 YPC, you can't run the ball w/ a bad OL. I realize you can have a good rush OL and poor pass Ol but I saw every game Kenny played, he took sacks he didn't have to b/c he held onto the ball too long looking for the HR. he hit a lot of HRs but he struck out a lot too. You can throw those #s w/o context out all you want but the reality is our D and run games were up and down all year. Our D blew leads against Den, Cle, Hou, Det, Minny, Chi Our run game was #3 b/c of wildcat and a meaningless week 17 game from McKnight. look at the top 2 rushers: 1985 Freeman/hector: 439-1903, 4.3 YPC, 9 TDs 2010 Greene/LT: 404-1680, 4.2 YPC, 8 TDs which was better? and most of our run production came w/ LT the first month or so: LT games 1-5: 76-435, 5.7 YPC, 3 TDs LT games 6-16: 143-479, 3.3 YPC, 3 TDs Don't just look at rankings. Our D was top 5 last year, our D was nothing more than mediocre last year. W/ all that info the pass game is what got the Jets to 11 wins havingto come back at denver, at Cle, at Det, vs. Hou when the D and run game failed. The D killed us in the '10 title game setting the tone allowing that long TD drive to start the game, the O got us back in it but when we had a chance w/ needing the D to keep Pitt from getting 2 1st downs they couldn't come through. Much like the '09 title game where the D was gashed and cost us the title game.
I don't think either of us are arguing Sanchez's superiority to O'Brien, so let's throw out the 80s. Plus both run games were good, I'm not arguing there either. But you can't throw out the wildcat. It was very effective, and necessary because the passing game wasn't doing it. If you think our D was mediocre last year, you're REALLY spoiled by the 09-10 teams. As for '10, you went into game-by-game specifics and a decent rebuttal, which I'm sure I'll have once I refresh myself, would take more time than I have at the moment, but I'll do a quick version. Some highlights of your weird claims. First of all, we went 4-1 in games in which the defense 'blew the lead' Does a truly great defense never allow a lead to broken once it's gained? I wonder if that's ever happened. Counter that with the fact that we lost 3 games in which the defense gave up 10 points or less. And the one that was 10, we allowed 30 passing yards. The defense allowed Pit to 'set the tone' sounds like the equivalent of something a baseball purist who hates replay and sabermetrics would say. The defense pitched a shutout in the second half, and you fault them for two first downs. Playing mediocre for 3.5 quarters and getting your shit together for a game winning drive doesn't define clutch to me. We pulled far more games out of our asses in 2010 than we should have, because we didn't score enough points against the good teams. In ideal circumstances, Mark is decent, we beat the teams we should have beat, with more effort than necessary. I understand all QBs are worse under pressure, but Sanchez was the worst QB under pressure in football last year. It's no coincidence we lost to teams like the Ravens, Steelers, Pats, Bears, and Packers. He can't take the heat.
The WC wasn't nearly as effective in 2010 as it was in 2009 and again our pass game svaed us numerous times in 2010 or we wouldn't have been close to 11 wins. Our O was medicore last year, don't be fooled b/c we did great against KC and Jax to skew the rankings. How many times did they play poorly to help us get behind(as did the O), as the O was starting to come back they'd allow a time consuming drive to end it(Oak, both NE games, blowing the Den game, the NYG game w/ the Crus play that changed both our seasons, allowing Matt Moore to go 12+ mins on a TD drive to give Mia the lead,...). The D gets a pass by most b/c of the TOs by the O but the D was not very good. It wasn't great in any of the years undre rex but it was a top D in '09 and one of the better Ds in '10. In '11 it was mid of the pack. we were 4-1 in those games b/c the OFFENSE scored and won the games. we did lose 3 where the D gave up 10 or less, the first they allowed Bal to control the ball for 40 mins, the 2nd was a windy day that favotred the Ds and we got screwed on a few bad INT/fumble calls, the last the O was in a funk and was terrible. The D allowed Pitt to control the clock for 9 mins and score a TD, you don't think that could affect an offense in frigid conditions? The D was beat up all first half long, they did a good job in the 2nd half but when we got it down under a score needing one stop they couldn't do it. Some games 10 pts will be enough, other games 30 pts. Our O bailed us out multiple times that year. at Miami, at den, at det, at Cle, Hou- that's a lot of games. he can't take the heat? he hasn't played a poor postseason game yet, there's not much more heat than in postseason. He outplayed Tom Brady at Foxboro in the div rd, where do you come up w/ this stuff? He struggled last year but the run game was mediocre, the D was mediocre, the OL stunk, the WRs weren't good. you do realize we lost the Bears game 38-34, right? and that he gave our "great" D a double digit lead? If you think Barry's Ols stunk I can't help you. You may want to find a football 101 class.
So, are you saying for Sanchez to be a successful QB, he needs a top ranked defense, a top ranked running game, a solid OLine and above average WR's?
Time of possession has to be the most overrated statistic in this sport. Controlling the ball is only meaningful when you have the lead, so as to limit the total number of chances the opposing team has to overtake you. In that Ravens game, they having the ball for 40 minutes had very little to do with the defense. Both teams had the same number of drives. The Jets drives had possession times as follows: 2:26, 1:36, 3:06, 3:23, 0:49, 0:52, 2:13, 2:36, 1:30, 1:46, 1:01 Blame the defense. Why would the offense be affected by a 9 minute drive to start the game? Because it's cold out? That's pitiful.
he had some success last year despite all the issues. The point is the failure to make the playoffs wasn't all his fault. Now that scapegoat #1 Brian Schottenheimer is gone I am noticing the fans are moving on th scapegoat #2 in Mark. Bal having the ball for 40 mins had everything to do w/ the defense. look at the 3rd down conversions they allowed: 3rd and 9 3rd and 13 3rd and 28 3rd and 9 3rd and 9 3rd and 10 3rd and 7 3rd and 10 3rd and 10 The D constantly allowed Bal to convert 3rd and longs which kept drives goin and our O on the sideline. How can you get into a rythm on O when this is happening? So you don't think a 9 min TD drive to start the game could affect the offense at all?
No, but he doesn't exactly have the ability to carry a team yet, so the defense does have to be pretty good. Sanchez is best with PA which would mean he does need to at least have a mediocre running game. You can hide a weakness on the inside of the line, but not on the outside. The O-line is very solid other than WFH. Let's get to "average" receivers before we go to "above-average".
Let's stop being ridiculous. Sanchez or Pennington never looked like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uq0F2whpl4
When you watch that video you have to notice how great Toon and Walker were. Look at most of those passes, those guys are wide open far behind the defense. O'Brien was a great fit for them because he had the arm to get it out there in front of them and hit big plays, but that padded a lot of stats early in his career, too. Throw in Shuler at TE and a good running game, when O'Brien was good he was every bit as much a product of his team as Sanchez or Pennington. When he didn't have that he was very mediocre. I wasn't around for Maynard and Sauer, but in my lifetime we're never had a WR tandem as good as Walker/Toon. For a couple of years Keyshawn/Chrebet were close, and for 3/4 of a season Sanchez had Braylon and Holmes, during which they pulled out a bunch of wins in the passing game.
I call this a wash. O'Brien had three amazing targets, but not much else. Sanchez had five very good targets.
He had McNeil and Hector behind him. O'Brien stepped into one of the better teams we've ever had, it got old around him and then he struggled but it's not like he was raising the game of anyone around him. For as good and accurate as his arm was he hung Toon out to dry enough to where it shortened his career, he also had Rob Moore when Walker retired, who wasn't Walker but a fantastic WR.
he was putrid that game and cost us that game, that one drive in that clip doesn't tell the whole story but we don't have a cut up of his failures on youtibe the way we do all of his good plays.
