Mangold is a great player, but he'd damn well better be since they used a first round pick on him. Good centers can be found in lower rounds too. That was a desperation move by Tanny. It was his first draft and Bradway had ignored the OL for so long that he wanted to make sure they shored up the OL. Comparing Floyd to Keyshawn speedwise doesn't do him any favors. The Jets are already too slow. They don't need to add a slow #1 WR who they're gonna pay millions of dollars to. I don't think Floyd is as slow as Keyshawn, but it's probably irrelevant because he'll be drafted by someone long before the Jets pick.
Upshaw. His floor is still a productive NFL starter while Ingram's floor is a 3rd down pass rush specialist who may or may not fit in a hybrid 3-4 scheme. Upshaw is not an elite pass rusher but he is a solid & would be an upgrade. All other aspects of his game are very good and he could easily be a 100+ tackle guy in Rex's scheme. I like Ingram as well. I think he has good intangibles and is a better pass rusher than Upshaw. I'm just not sure where he fits as a 3 down player.
Nick Mangold says hi! So does Ben Grubbs. Green bay spent thier first on a right tackle in 2010. Its poor thinking like this that will keep a team down. First rounders need to be spent on top end talent no matter the position.
No it isn't. You can have a very good OL without having a single Pro Bowler on it. Only a fool would use his top picks on building his OL and have to use lesser picks on his playmakers, the ones who actually score or prevent the other team from scoring.
If we could draft a guy like Mike Adams and plug him at RT our line could be one of the best in the league. It would be an easier transition than hoping a guy in the later round works out. You can say that anyone is able to be found in the later rounds but when you have a huge hole on an offense that effects the run and passing games you fill it the best you can.
I disagree. GB could afford to use a first on an OL because they already have great WRs, a great QB, good TEs and playmakers at OLB and in the secondary. The Jets have Revis on D. Sanchez meh. Holmes meh. Turner less than meh. Kerley meh plus. With regard to the Ravens, they have Flacco (whom they like) at QB, Ray Rice, Anquan Boldin and others on offense. On D they have Ed Reed, and a number of others. IMO it's retarded thinking choosing to build one's OL using first round picks, when you have no team speed and practically no playmakers.
oh i see, so you would pass on Mangold in the 1st round if he fell into your lap. I'd hate to be the QB on your roster.
Good players at any position can be found in any round. You really need to quit using this argument because its extremely flawed. There is talent in every round, but the further along you go the bigger the flaws become. This includes lineman of all positions.
Sorry, but you kids don't know squat. Things have changed somewhat, but historically, OLs have had very few first round picks on them and there have been a lot of very good and great OLs.
Ask Alex Smith how much he loves his 1st round OLinemen the Niners drafted him last year. That stout oline basically resurrected Smith's career.
No, I don't need to quit using it and I won't. Just because you think it's flawed, doesn't mean that it is. Skill position players, i.e., playmakers, are THE most important players on your team. It's absurd to think of using your top picks on grunts and then having to use jags in your playmaking positions, or overpay for veteran FAs, and have constant cap struggles and constant turnover at key positions. Yes, it includes linemen too, but you make my point for me. OL are less important than playmakers. I'd rather have the talent dropoff be at C and OG where players have less space to deal with and as long as they are strong and develop sound techniques and your OL works together as a unit, then you are fine. That's the key point that you guys miss. The OL works as a unit playmakers are often in space working one-on-one against opponents. That's where teams need their best talent.
Between the two Ingram all the way... better pass rusher and better athlete. Not the better football player as of now and let's not forget who played book-end to him in college (Jadeveon Clowney is a Monster, capital M)... but I think he'll be the better pro. I will say this though, Upshaw (who I'm not particularly a fan of) looks like someone willing to work his butt off to become a better football player, so Ingram's work ethic will have to be at least very good. That said I hope someone with more overall talent like Richardson, DeCastro or Floyd falls to us.
funny, New England has done just fine using multiple first round picks on Oline man over the years. They don't draft Skill positions like running back or receiver highly and the last time they took a RB in round on it was a bust. Look what happened to our O line when we had a talent drop off at center this season. There you just made my point for me. Do you still want a huge talent drop off there? :wink: You can find talent at any position in any round of the draft. If you want to stay narrow minded thats fine. Building a draft board by position over talent is a quick way to failure.
Look, here's the argument for getting an OL on the 16 IF the OL is the BPA. The Jets need to be particularly linear about fixing the mess they've engineered over the last 6 years. The first draft that Tanny oversaw did most of the right things and did them in spades. The Jets had a critical weakness on the offensive line due to multiple injuries in 2005 and some guys getting old in a hurry. So the Jets went and got the LT and C in the 1st round even though there were sexier picks available. They took a QB in the 2nd round, which was also the right move given that their options at QB were an injury-prone guy and a guy who clearly was only backup material. After those 3 picks close to the ball they took 5 out of 7 players who were either in the trenches or the middle of the field. Schlegel, Eric Smith (drafted as a ST but also a S), Leon Washington, Jason Pociask and Titus Adams. The only peripheral players they took were Brad Smith and Drew Coleman. That was a very solid draft greatly helped by the extra picks the Jets had from Abraham and some compensation picks. Some of the valuations were whacky, like Schlegel who was not draftable on many boards but fell in the 5th to 7th round range on others going in the 3rd and Titus Adams who was not on most people's boards getting drafted at all. On the whole the draft was very solid though. Since that draft the Jets have spent a huge number of picks on the periphery of the field. They traded up for Darrelle Revis and also took Chansi Stuckey in 2007. Jacob Bender washed out. They traded depth for Dustin Keller - who is about as peripheral as a TE gets and drafted Dwight Lowery (CB at the time) and Marcus Henry in 2008. Vernon Gholston, Erik Ainge and Nate Garner washed out. They did spend two draft picks going to get Kris Jenkins but his injury problems let him play only a single season before he was on the way out for good. They went heavy in the middle in 2009 but they only had 3 picks and Mark Sanchez, Shonn Greene and Matt Slauson all have big question marks at this point even though they are in the middle of the field and close to the line of scrimmage. They spent two 2010 picks to get Braylon Edwards, more value on the periphery. In 2010 they took another CB up high in Kyle Wilson and the second round pick in the middle Vladimir Ducasse has so far failed to pan out. Again really short on picks they got two more middle guys but they were both roleplayers in Joe McKnight and John Conner. They spent a 2nd round in 2011 on Antonio Cromartie and a 5th on Santonio Holmes. In 2011 the Jets tried really hard to rectify some of the huge imbalance in their inside vs outside draft strategy by drafting Mo Wilkerson and Kenrick Ellis with their first two picks. The problem again is that they only had 6 picks and they got two more WR's in Jeremy Kerley and Scotty McKnight and a couple of central guys in Bilal Powell and Greg McElroy. The reason the Jets look so shaky right now is that after 2006 the vast majority of their free talent, the draft picks, have gone towards the periphery or have been spent on middle guys who flopped. This is like killing the Jets. They are hollowing out before our eyes. That's why the offensive line didn't play all that well last season and the defensive front got no pass pressure. Since 2006 neither of those areas have gotten enough attention and WR's and CB's cannot carry the day. So back to the main point. The Jets need to be linear in fixing this. They need to face the fact that it's possible that Mark Sanchez needs a better team to bring out his value. They may have hollowed out enough at this point that he's not all that valuable to them. In that case they're effectively rebuilding at this point. Because they're hollow. The first thing you do in a rebuild is to make your offensive line good. That's how you make your young QB who you're going to draft good. The fact that making the offensive line good might salvage Sanchez also has to play into this. That should be priority one for next year because somewhere somehow the Jets are going to have to get back to having a very good offensive line before they're really any good again. This is true whether you see Sanchez as the QB or not. Greg mcElroy is going to suck eggs behind the Jet's line as currently constituted and then he's going to get hurt. So if an OL is the BPA on 16 the Jets would be insane not to take him.
I understand many starting Olineman have been groomed from later rounds, I never was doubting that. The Saints Oline is a good example of this. But just as many great offensive lines have been built through high round selections, like the Patriots, who have mostly first and second round picks. Or even the Ravens who have one of the better lines in the league having 3 out of 5 starters as 1st round picks and 1 starter as a 3rd round pick. I can find other examples as well. My point is, our line is already good but to be great we need to fill up a hole on our team that is just as big as our OLB problem. A new starting RT, who can do a great job, can improve our QB, RBs, and entire offensive structure. Its something that , IMO, is hard to pass up. Its also a lot easier than hoping/waiting for someone picked in the lower rounds to pan out, that itself has a low success rate, especially when we need an immediate impact guy.
Guys, why even bother arguing with him? He's obviously right. I mean, drafting only "playmakers" in the first round is a recipe for success. I mean, look at the history of drafting "playmakers". I know, it's sounds completely ridiculous and stupid to consider that a great universal draft strategy is based on a subjective term, but I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. Look at the Packers, they spent all of their first rounders on BIG TIME PLAYMAKERS (a team he referenced himself by the way). It's not like they've spent THEIR LAST TWO FIRST ROUND PICKS ON OFFENSIVE TACKLES. Oh wait, they did. BUT SCREW THAT!!! Who cares about logic and facts, we live in a land of PLAYMAKERS!!! WHERE LOLLIPOPS AND RAINBOWS ARE AS PLENTIFUL AS DOMINANT PASSRUSHERS!! Let's just load up some shit on the OL (because the significant drop in OL play this past year hasn't had ANY ill effects on our team) pick some wide receivers that won't have any shot at getting open in the .4 seconds Sanchez has to throw. WHO GIVES A HOOT THAT THIS IS THE DEEPEST WR CLASS OF ALL FREAKING TIME (pre draft), if they're not first rounders, then they are AWFUL JAGS. BOO THOSE GUYS.
folks - no one on this board can make that choice at this point. any answer is biased for several reasons. besides college tape, all we have now are a few measurables that may or may not matter ultimately. either player would be a tremendous addition to the defense. i do expect the jets to advertise to be hot and heavy with these 2 guys - possibly with the opposite intent of getting someone else - perry or burfict later on. that would occur in a trade down scenario.
Ingram all day every day over Upshaw. He's a better football player with better instincts, better pass rush moves, and much more versatile. In addition, Saban is a system guy. His defenses are ALWAYS nasty, but I can't name a single dominant player from those defenses in his 15 years as a college HC. Not one. I like Upshaw still, but only if DeCastro Ingram and TRich are gone. People who cite "well Upshaw played in the 3-4" are ridiculous. Very few players in the NFL played in the 3-4 in college, and Sabans 3-4 over 1.5 decades has produced no one in the NFL of note. Also, if I could, I'd immediately block any poster who actually believes you build a team with skill guys. It's pretty much the most wrong statement you could make as a football fan.
