#1 you misquoted me. If you read my post you would have noticed the word "besides" proceeding my statment which totally changes the meaning. I don't think you did this on purpose but rather it was just carlessness on your part of you were simply blinded by your hatred of Edwards and just wanted to see what you wanted to see. #2 When a coach with no reputation, no history, who has done and achieved nothing initiates a dictatorial style that treats his players like children it will only be natural for players to revolt. Initially its in the players best interest to follow along. The Jets openning schedule is very rough. It would not be suprising to see the Jets between 2-6 and 0-8 at the halway point. If thats the case it will only be natrual to point fingers. A bad start and this team will quickly remember how they have been treated by the new wonderkiddie coach. His lack of pedigree and reputation will simply not buy him as much of a benefiot of the doubt with players than a more seasoned or respectfull coach would get. #3 Fans will always like someone that is new. They will always like people that play the tough guy. They don't like Mangini because of what he is doing but because it allows them to whine about how much they hate Edwards. They will only natrually frolic like pigs seeing a pile of mud when they see him doing anything opposite to the man they hate. Fans like people are generally wrong. #4 Treating players like children. Telling them they have no voice, telling them they can only talk when they are told, endangering their safety with a archaic outmoded style of practice is not about treating players with respect. It would be one thing if Parcells would do this his players. He has a reputation and is respected and players will listen. Its another when someone with no resumes who a few years ago was a lowly waterboy is forcing this old school mentatlity upon you. Yes some will listen intially, some may even like it but some will hate him and keep grudges. When things go bad those numbers will multiply. If he treated his players like men and with respect it would be a different story. Trying to scare players into doing what you want is always easier than trying to reason with them or find a way to motivate them. But like most dictators scare tactics only work until the victim is given an oppurtunity to run. A bad start will tell many players they have the oppurtunity to run. #5 After the disaster of this years Jets draft and from what we have seen from Mangini its not a far strecth to imagine how quickly his position can fall apart. If we have learned anything from Woody other than that he is cheapskate who is unwilling to pay his coaches a decent salary and therefore will only hire inexpereinced unwanted coaching prospects, its that he has little patience. If Mangini fails and the players revolt against him he could easily be another Groh. But back to my points. My post was about Edwards practices. They worked and they have been copied by other teams. Edwards teams were disiplined and made few mental mistakes. His teams were always on top of the leage in fewest penalties and fewest turnovers. Mangini's style appears to be a throwback to an outmoded style of football where the player has no rights, no voice and is worked into the ground. I prefer the more modern approach of treating people with respect and rewarding people for good deeds rather than punishment. Maybe Mangini's styles will work for him and this football team but its a style of the past and a style that contadicts with how the world works today. He may be a throwback and a gem in the rough but more than likley he will be a bust. Lets just hope he is the former. Nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong. But rather my guess is by mid season the lynch mob will be forming on this board for his head. My guess is by midseason many fans will find their desire to watch the Jets win will become greater than their hatred of Edwards and they will turn on the new coach. What will be quite ironic is I will probably then end up becoming a defender of Mangini when people turn their anger and hatred against him.
Mangini might be running camp a little bit too tough, but Club Ed is definately too easy. I think that the ideal TC lies somewhere between the two philosophies--something like what Jon Gruden runs in Tampa. If you go too tough like Mangini threatens, you can lose your team like Al Groh or Tom Coughlin did. If you go too soft like Herm, your team will never respect you like what happened to Jim Fassel. Somebody like Gruden or Brian Billick runs a camp where players respect what they have to do but they get rewarded and respected for their efforts. That's ideal to me.
Well if thats the case..he will probably tear up both..ummm..shoulders. Ok..there are few guys around here not to mention names...and you are good guys...that love to post things like "isnt it time to move on!!..Herms not here....grow up!!". I thought about it..and have been very nice to Herm the past month (meaning..I just dont mention his name) and then you have to post this Q and A with him...and let me tell you..major setback for me...starting with this paragraph. “You don’t play football like that. The history of football has never been taught that way (more breaking news...see? I always thought football taughts its players to play undisciplined). When things like that happen you’ve got an undisciplined football team and undisciplined football teams lose games in the fourth quarter because they self-destruct (yeah..your teams never lost football games in the fourth quarter huh herm?). All you’ve got to do is look at the teams that are always up there in the penalties and watch how they play. If you have poise you’re going to beat them. We’re not going to be a team like that.". Captain Cliche is alive and well in Kansas City...cant wait for his slip up of using Dorthy, the tin man, the lion and toto with stories about the Emerald City..."Um..Herm.thats that state of Kansas".
I read over that third sentence there a few times to make sure I wasn't seeing things ... HIS METHOD WORKED??? So you just toss those embarassing Septembers out the window huh? Very nice. I thought one of the main goals of traning camp was to get the team ready for September, not October? We may have had few penalties, but that's because our offense and defense were the most vanilla in the league. No blitzing on defense with a soft zone, of course they aren't going to commit penalties. The most conservative offensive playcalling in the league, of course they aren't going to commit penalties. How about the complete lack of proper tackling (you know, tackling, you're supposed to work on that in training camp) and Herm's complete inability to teach HIS OWN SCHEME (again, something that's supposed to be done in training camp). But man, those BBQs sure were nice. Yes, Herm's camps were nice and fun for the players. But it left them completely unprepared for the start of the season. I'm sorry but I cannot possibly say with a straight face that his camps were efficient. The fact that you can just shows how badly you're still drunk off the Kool-Aid.
Herm's camp Look at what happened to us in Week 1 last year after a classic Herm country-club type summer camp: We got our doors blown off in Kansas City. The team was clearly NOT ready to play. The Chiefs can't lose enough for me so long as Sperm Edwards is there....
Hey, I know Buttle from the past here. I think he's either on a two day crack run, or a Pats fan has taken him hostage in his own house, and is posting under his name. His position here is, well, frankly, quite crazed. It ignores all known facts, and is seemingly a drug induced maniacal reaction to many years of Jet fan frustration. I'm sorry, but the stuff he is saying is straight out of La la land. if it really is Buttle, it's time for a white jacket.
Buttle...I respect the hell out of you buddy..but what your doing is the same thing your accusing the haters of Herm (me being the vice president and national spokesman) of doing. You keep saying the blind hatred for Herm is what fuels this outpouring of respect toward EM. From reading your post, it could be said that you might have been blindly following Herm. You make the comment that if EM had Parcells reputation...well..breaking news...Parcells didnt come on to the scene dressed in black with a white collar. He is who he is..and he is who he was back in his first year. Consistency is what you always got out of Parcells..love him or hate him. With Herm...that was never the case. He talked a consistent game but never acted the part. He stressed to this team and its fans how important it was the year before to get off to a good start after poor starts that left this team scrambling like madmen to make the playoffs on the final game of the season needing much help from other teams. How did Herm handle this? He ran a strict camp...and the reward was a fast start. How does Herm follow that up? It worked right? He stayed consistent right? Nope...he follows that up with a soft camp treating the players as if they were coming off back to back superbowls. The reward? An opening game against the Chiefs that was over within the first 5 minutes. You mention the disaster of this years draft. Whos betting on the blind here. Either the draft solidified 40% of the offensive line for the next 5-10 years..or it didnt..I dont know...how do you. You mention about the "New NFL" with shorter practices etc. The leading teams the past 4 years...Patriots...Steelers....Eagles....Panthers..are not coached by choir boys who take crap. This softer NFL that you talk about is news to me. If you want to say that coaches are cutting back practices..and sitting players during preseason games even more now...I will agree with that. Saying that coaches are running a lovefest the way Herm did is just not true. Lastly, when a player says this next sentence....to me as a fan...its the kiss of death. I have heard this sentence a couple times over the years...and at first I thought it might be a good idea. Now, I cringe for any team and their chances. "This lighter workload during training camp will keep the players fresh come the end of the season". In one way its correct...the players that were on the injured list last year probably never felt better at that time of the year.
1) I did misquote you. I read it quickly and mentally inserted a comma between "Besides" and the rest of the sentence. My bad. Without the comma, this does change the sentence drastically and you therefore did acknowledge that our regular season last year was plagued by injury. But you blame this carelessness on blind hatred of Edwards. I do not hate Edwards, so you've either got me confused with someone else or you enjoy assigning motives to other posters' thought processes. It still doesn't change anything. If you don't think last year's camp was ultra soft and therefore contributed to last year's severe injuries, there is nothing I can do to change you opinion on that. Tell me, were you at any of the camps last year, or have you been to camp this year? You seem an expert on Jets training camp comparisons. Do you deduce your opinions on personal observations or just rely on the media for your information? If it's the latter, I submit you're reading all kinds of things, most of which is is geared toward sensationalism and selling newspapers. 2) "Dictatorial style?" "Treating players like children?" Before you plant these kind of label on Mangini, why don't you go to camp and experience it for yourself. You seem to want to put EM in the same category as a Tom Coughlin, fining players for not being in their seats at 5 minutes to the hour. I think something needs to be turned around here. You blame me (or others) for hated Herm, of which you have zero evidence. But it certainly seems apparent that you've got your own thing going for EM. The two above labels you pin on him are both false and you know it. There is absolutely no evidence of either. And "wonderkiddie coach?" There's something else going on here, right? Why the Mangini insults? 3) Your exagerated and unfair labels for Mangini carry over to your obvious belittlement of the average Jets fan. "Fans don't like Mangini for what he is doing but because it allows them to whine about how much they hate Edwards?" How simplistic of you to make that assumption and how insulting to insult Jets fans everywhere. Most good fans are sophisticated and knowledgeable enough to evaluate Mangini for what he is doing and it has absolutely nothing to do with Edwards. I submit it is you who are fixated on Edwards, not the average Jets fan or poster here. Most Jets fans I know are glad Herm's gone and are more than happy that he moved on. Having a little fun with some pictures in this thread doesn't constitute hatred, it reminds us of the ridiculousness of the man. You've got this love-hate thing mixed up. Your love of Herm is greater than our hatred of the man and there's a big difference. Labeling Mangini a "wonderkiddie coach" exhibits your own hatred of EM much more than our captions do on Edwards' photos. 4) "Treating players like children." This is the second time in this post that you make this accusation. "Telling them they have no voice, telling them they can only talk when they are told." Where are you getting this from? I'm not asking this rhetorically, I'd really like to know. Seriously. It's just so off the charts. You destroy any credibility as a poster with this. There have been no articles written anywhere of this... none. If you've attented camp this year you will see plenty of dialogue between Mangini and the players. There is absolutely no evidence of the above, IMO. 5) "After the disaster of this years Jets draft..." Okay, now you opine that our draft also sucks this year. Nothing Mangini is involved in is any good to you. Your dislike of Mangini is based on something, pal... are you a Patriots fan, by any chance? We can get into the pros and cons of this year's draft, but most will say that we had a good one and not a "disaster." Another exageration. But even if one would have liked to have seen AJ Hawk or someone else and an argument could be presented that we should have done this or that, it's still far too early to judge this draft a "disaster." You're entitled to your opinion, but you prematurely judge the success of this year's draft almost as gleefully as you prematurely judge and improperly label our new HC. Something bothering you, bunkie? Your favorite (obviously Herm), is gone. And now anyone else who comes along needs be impugned. We have some fun with some photos in this thread and you viciously lash out at not only our new coach but Jets fans as well. It's you who needs to get over your anger of Herm being gone. Try to separate the two... I have. I'm glad Herm is gone, but there's a big difference between being glad he's gone and hating him. I'm seriously asking you to attend TC this year and see for yourself if you haven't already done so. It would also help if you had attended camp last year, in order that you could make a fair comparison. I am saying you have a misconception of camp that is probably born of articles you've read about "boot camp," etc. You wrongly exagerate the conditions and worse, you wrongly and prematurely label Mangini and his style. You're wrong about players being treated like children and particularly wrong about them not being respected. Something else it bugging you man, and I submit it's got more to do with Herm than you let on. It's okay to lament Herm's departure and to chastise us here for captioning a photo of Herm taken in a ridiculous pose, but it's far worse for you to embark on a derision of Eric Mangini before he even gets started, before you've really gotten to know him, and particularly if you haven't been to camp yourself and seen it for yourself.
Buttle: I guess you're not around, otherwise you'd have commented by now. Then again, I can't blame you: why try to defend a weak position? You still come on the board occasionally with your Herm Lovefest, knocking anyone who's delighted he's gone. No problem there, but then you appear again and make these outrageos, inflamatory, unfounded comments about Eric Manigini in Herm's wake. Your rage over Herm's departure (and subsequent ridiclue) knows no bounds. But I still replied and you offer no response. No problem there either, except that the board should know where you're coming from and file it in memory when reading your future posts. Slither off, my friend.
Edward's teams were pushed around on D until he turned the D over to Henderson who was a hard core disciplinarian. The O was very conservative and mistake proof because of Hackett. Once Herm fired Hackett and put his stamp on the O the O was a complete fire drill. Take a look at the coaches who were in last years playoffs and tell me which of the Herm Edwards new school approach to letting the players run the asylum was successful? Joe Gibbs, Belichek, Cowher, Shanahan, Coughlin, Lewis, Fox, Smith, Holmgren, Gruden? None of those guys are remotely like Herm but there was one guy like Herm in the playoffs last year Dungy. Dungy has had the best team in football at least 5 times and has always been knocked off by one of those dinosaurs, old school coaches.
