Just to refresh that initial post and show you why it was a useless thread to start: NOBODY IS ADVOCATING 9+ MILLION FOR HOLMES.
Again, you are nitpicking. It was a hypothetical to show that I place a lower importance on WR than Front 7 or OL. Cuts are still being made, and there's not a new deal in place yet, so the FA Class isn't even official. It's not that Mark has "Too many weapons" but you're not going to get 100% out of all of them when there is only one ball to go around. You don't seriously agree with that posters argument about "Those 3 teams" do you? "Those 3 teams" are the Pats, Dolphins, and Bills... they happen to be in our division, so he strengthened my point. Two of those games were on the road. Mark Played his ass off, and Holmes was watching on his couch like I was. Mark doesn't need Holmes to be good. He's still improving, and he's surrounded by a good OL, RB's and WR's, with our without Holmes.
Steve Breaston is actually quite good. Doucet isn't great, but he's young and has some potential as a cheap slot guy. I'm not looking for Reggie Wayne here.
I said that, but I also noted that I draw a hard line at 7 million, so it's not as though 9 million is the number I start to cringe at. I am cringing at anything over 6 million. There are people advocating 7-8 Million. I'm not one of them.
Steve Breaston was solid when he had Fitzgerald and Boldin around him. He dropped off when Boldin left. Edwards and Cotchery aren't going to provide that boost.
How is it nitpicking to address your point? Is that your excuse for everything? It's a stupid argument unless you have specifics on who you'd want to see the money go to. No, you won't get 100% out of all of them. By the same token, you'll also pull added coverage off whichever receiver you were planning to keep by keeping both. You open up the passing game, which makes Holmes much more of an impact. If you don't think Edwards and Holmes benefit from having the other on the field, I don't know what to tell you. I do buy the argument because I watch the games. The Pats D at that point, for example, was incredibly raw, and its youth certainly showed in that game. Mark played well in all 3 games; his demonstrated success should make you want to surround him with as much talent as possible, not provide an excuse to short shrift him in a passing league. If you think Edwards/Cotchery/Stuckey/Keller is plenty for our young QB, you must have lower expectations for his future success than most of us do.
And yet you keep throwing out 9 million or 10 million as the threatening number. What was it, again? San Francisco could offer 5 years 45 million if we offered 8 million per? Yes, there are people accepting a number between 7 and 8 million if it comes down to it. Those people want our QB to thrive. They don't WANT to see Holmes get that number; they're resigned to the fact that may be what it takes. One of these days, perhaps you could get around to telling me EXACTLY how the money would be better spent. None of these "examples" involving players we can't sign. Give me real players and predicted contracts. Otherwise, you're just making some stupid stand against Holmes with no real beneficial purpose in sight. Just a hypothetical statement on WR value.
I'm not trying to be difficult, or disrespectful, or seem like I'm not grasping what's being said about the needs on defense, but, I really don't agree with trying to get any of the receivers on the current free agency list, when, while maybe not easily, we can retain the unit we have now. Especially when we're talking about it, and we could pay Holmes at MOST something like $500,000-1M more a year, or in bonuses, or incentives, or whatever, than we might "want to" and lock him up. I don't believe we pay Sanchez $50M, call him the "Sanchize," say he's the future of the team, talk about wanting him to make big leaps in the next two seasons, surround him with weapons he's gone on record saying he really wants back, going as far during Super Bowl press to talk about how much those weapons "mean to him," and then we say, "Hey, he was $1M a year too expensive, here's uhhh, this new guy. This new guy who doesn't have nearly as good a skill set or anything, but we shaved a $1M down. Hope it doesn't throw you off. Good luck. Hope you have chemistry with him, get along, all of that. Bye." I just cannot fathom. Cannot. So, yes, while I'm one of the people willing to get closer to $7-8M, true... Having said that, I don't think it's the likely outcome, and I think Tanny is a master of inflating contracts with all kinds of escalators and incentives that can make a contract strong enough to retain Holmes without that being necessary. But if it came down to it, it would be worth it, imo. Most of the receivers that are noted on the free agency list would leave me concerned for this offense, honestly. The ones that don't/won't leave me concerned are potentially going to command something in relative shooting distance to what Tone would want, right? And if we're going to build our offense for the future, let's just get it taken care of well. That just isn't how I'm looking to cut costs, especially when it would be so little to get so much. Why would we even want to consider going for a Tone replacement when that's the list? Why do we want to have to go slightly cheaper, and then worry about chemistry with Mark, chemistry with the WR tandem in place, fit in the system, etc. Oh, I should have noted when talking about the receivers... I don't really see the draw of any of them, with the exception of Sidney Rice, that is, who will command the most money of the receivers so he's out of our league, and who as has been noted, he is not a Tone replacement, he's a Braylon "replacement". His style is not at all like Holmes'. And Ellard seems to have a lot of praise for Tone's skill set and what Tone does well, and what Tone brings to the team. He went on record this weekend talking about Tone's ability to get separation, his "special" factor, getting excited about him, mentioning if he had more time in the system.. etc. Ellard seems to want those attributes (and the player) to stick around. On that topic, I also think it's of note that at the combine, didn't Henry Ellard say he hadn't really been looking at tape closely? Didn't sound like a guy who was shopping for receivers to fill a big niche for a Santonio or Braylon type player. My reasons for thinking that Holmes is likely to be in our range somewhere, and if he's not quite, it's likely to just be $500,000-1M more to retain him than what we may "want," or some range doable, are these: - I tend to believe that if Segal is going to be asking anywhere near $8-10M a year for Holmes on average, Tanny is already well aware. What month was it reported he had already started doing his due diligence in the form of contacting Tone and Bray's agents? Months and months ago. I tend to believe Tanny has a very good idea where the ask for Tone is going to be. At the least, a range. If the range is insanity, then I don't even think the Jets would pretend to want to try to hold on to him. - If Holmes was asking for $8-10M, or something else, something else, anything else the Jets didn't feel he was worth, or a price the Jets didn't think they had a shot in... of getting close to? I think the media narrative right about now would be way different. Way different. - I don't think we see the controlled leaks by "sources" who are tied in to the FO indicating Tone's a priority, repeatedly, often, everywhere, on all the channels... Everyone from Jets beat writers are sharing this info, Manish and Rich, to NFL Network people, Jason LaCanfora, Albert Breer, to league insiders, Michael Lombardi, to scouts... All of them seem to have "heard" Holmes is high up on a priority list, most of them say number one. That's not random, I would suspect. That's not without some due diligence on the Jets part. I'm sure they've ascertained some pertinent information at this point, even if contract negotiations for long term deals haven't been worked on. - I think the public reports read more like, "Santonio will price himself out of NY market" or "Jets and Holmes haven't started contract negotiations, but Holmes and Jets likely to have to bridge a large gap to make a deal..." or "Jets want to retain free agent WR Holmes but money could be sticking point" or any other similar sentiment if Tone's due diligence and/or preliminary number being fed to Tanny is insane. Instead, we keep hearing he's a priority, and Joel's out there just merely confirming that a long term deal wasn't happening before a new CBA. Not new news, just a confirmation. And this is Joel Segal, if he was stirring the pot in the worst way, a negative way, we'd know, he's very capable. This was a tame confirmation, that postured, but didn't send any negative signals. - I think if Tone's asking price is crazy or out of the reach of the Jets, if what Joel has relayed to Tanny in due diligence is something ridic... Lombardi quits saying things like "The Jets want to retain their receivers, both of them." LaCanfora quits saying things like he was saying this weekend, "The Jets are prepared to pursue Holmes, and pursue him aggressively, they know they'll have to be aggressive and they're preparing for that. They want him signed long term." - I think if Joel's going to be talking crazy about Tone's salary, or if the Jets don't think Tone is likely to be "worth" whatever amount... I think that the NFL Network analysts in a chat they did last week don't say things like, we hear the Jets would have likely considered using the transition tag on Holmes to protect his rights until a long term deal could be reached after a new CBA, but Holmes would have had to have one more year in the league to be eligible for the tag, and didn't have the accrued number of years to be eligible, what with the rules a team has to abide to when it uses a franchise tag and a transition tag in conjunction in the same league year. - I think this symbolic tender, because it's likely going to be nothing more than that, is also a signal by the Jets, when it comes to Holmes. They're telling Joel and Santonio they're a priority. They're signaling to the other teams, he's a priority, imo. I don't know if they keep letting the media narrative pile on the words, the reports, the symbolism, if they don't feel Santonio's price isn't in a realm they can reach. It takes them one e-mail or call to change this whole narrative, they haven't. They propel it. - I think Tannenbaum isn't talking to CBSSports this weekend saying stuff like, "I'd like to keep my offense in tact when it comes to the running backs and receivers..." if he has a suspicion he can't get Holmes on a "fair deal" and thinks Holmes is really going to try and get OR command $8-10M, I... Tanny doesn't roll like that. - I think if Tone doesn't want to return to the Jets, or thinks he's going to be too expensive, or has been told by them they aren't going to be able to hold on to him? I think we quit seeing things like him re-tweeting stuff with the #Jets twitter tag like he did yesterday, and we quit seeing him cheering on the other NY sports teams by Twitter like he was tonight, and I think we see his twitter background get changed from the Jets to something else, and a whole slew of other things he was very quick to do when he and the Steelers parted ways. He's not doing any of that. This organization is so good at contract negotiations, and they're so good at tempering their words, but they've pretty much thrown everything they could out there to indicate they want Holmes back and will pursue him, and I just cannot subscribe to a world where Tanny is doing this "blind" and we have NO CLUE what Holmes is worth, and what type of offers other teams might make him, and what he wants to return, etc. Tanny's been preparing for this for... too long for me to think he's not all over this. This is why I think, at most, if Tone gets his bidding price jacked up a little bit, even a $1M increase, we need to still just pay it, take the hit. It has to be in a range Tanny's very probably already accounted for. This man is a cap genius and guru. A little extra to keep everything on the core of the offense tact... Worth it, imo. We had to know this was coming when we protected Harris' rights instead, yet we still wanted to retain Holmes. I understand we need to build our defense, I get that, but at the same time, Rex is a defensive coach. He can out coach, scheme, time, etc. without big names, or major weapons. He shouldn't have to, but the point is, he can, and he can do it damned well. The offense... and Schotty, that... That is an area that I truly think will benefit from keeping the weapons, especially since those weapons go towards the betterment of our franchise QB, that we've made clear we're building around. I think this is one of the very best ways to spend. Just my opinion.
^ exceptional argument. Its something that a lot of the board has been saying over and over for a while. We need to keep both receivers in order for Sanchez to reach his full potential, and thats pretty high. this is a QB driven league, we have a good young stud, and to not keep his weapons around and give him the chance to become the best he can be, would be downright stupid. Especially as you put it, if we draw the line in the sand at 7 mill per, and Tone gets 7.5 per year to go elsewhere. That would be the worst decision we could make.
To summarize a couple of the preceding posts, and before that to submit full disclosure here that I think the Jets should try and keep Edwards, Cro and Holmes, all three that as regards those suggesting the Jets should only pay Holmes what he's getting now or thereabouts: A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush - that means in this context that there does not appear to be anyone out there who would better complement Edwards and Cotch with MS than Holmes, and certainly not after allowing for getting up to speed. Remember there's a chance that a lockout may shorten camp and pre-season. Teams with established offenses have an advantage in such a situation. But more to the point Sanchez and Holmes already are in synch. You can't just assume that somebody, anybody, from somewhere else will fit as well. Holmes Edwards and Cotch also have good chemistry together, are not selfish toward each other. What unknown variable should go into this mix by changing out Holmes for someone new? You seek comfort in the notion that the team can go out and get someone else if the status quo is not a realistic option. You play the cards you have. Right now the Jets have the best hand they can realistically get at wideout. If that means the Jets have to pay a few more dollars to maintain consistency, so be it. Now none of this means if some other team wants to throw ridiculous money at Holmes that the Jets have to match it. But for a few dollars more? Go for it.
I'll be happy if we keep Holmes and Edwards. They compliment each other's skills perfectly and were both a big part of our success, especially in the post season. Not looking to change that one bit, I'll let Tannenbaum worry about the money--it's what he does and he's good at it.
I think the FO is committed to bringing back both Holmes and Edwards, and I'm pretty sure Tanny expected Holmes' agent to want to test the FA market before signing anything. Before you ask for a raise and a new contract in your office, you want to be sure you're not leaving money on the table elsewhere. That being said, it's silly for us to argue Holmes' market price because we just don't know what that is at this point. The Brandon Marshall deal will certainly be on his agent's mind, but I don't any team will offer Holmes $10million + a year. What the Front Office is willing to spend on Holmes is anyone's guess.
I just can't see Holmes getting Marshall-type money. Without bashing the guy, I can't see Holmes catching 100 balls in a season.
Holmes is great, but Holmes isn't worth ten million a year, not to us not to any other team. He's one strike away from a year suspension, making him far more of a risk than if he were judged by his talent alone.
I Tones doesn't sign with the Jets, what do you guys think of a WR core consisting of Torry Holt, TO, TJ whoseyomama, Derek Mason, and Marvin Harrison? We can release Cotch and let Ed and Tones go. Does anyone get a feeling we might need to start getting younger at our WR spot in 4-6 yrs if those are our WRs?
if Holmes goes elsewhere, how hard should the jets go after Rice? of course being that his health is intact, could you imagine that guy opposite of Braylon, two huge physical receivers to throw at. I want Holmes back badly, he is clutch, but it's not the end of the world if he doesn't come back.
