Thoughts on Gholston, Harris, ILB position

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by CatoTheElder, Oct 22, 2008.

  1. CatoTheElder

    CatoTheElder 2009 Comeback Poster of the Year

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    I've been thinking about our LB corps for a while and thought up this possible scenario which could help improve our already stout run defense and get Harris his first pro-bowl. When reading this, I think it's important to keep in mind three things: 1. It's pure speculation from someone who has not had a chance to see many games this season since I'm currently living in Shittsburgh; 2. It would require some personnel turnover and the right draft picks/free agents to make it work; and 3. The earliest this could be implemented would be next year.

    When looking at the statistics the Jets look really good against the run, currently ranking 4th in the league against the run with 83.0 yds/gm but bottom of the barrel against the pass at 24th with 229.8 yds/gm. We are getting beat consistently on the inside passing game. Zach freaking Miller killed us against Oakland and Jerheme Urban had similar success between the hash marks when we played Arizona.

    I think a lot of that problem comes from three major points: 1. lack of consistent play at free saftey; 2. Having a rookie at cb in Dwight Lowery who is still learning (probably more indicative of the overall ranking than the inside problem) and 3. poor coverage in the middle with David Harris and Eric Barton. We all know Barton for what he is, a big hitter with questionable coverage ability, occasionaly prone to being caught out of position against the run, and with mad roughing the passer skills. I've been saying for a while now that we need to bring in a bigger ILB and let Harris move back to his position last year on the weakside playing in space.

    The plan:
    Harris' coverage speed was his only knock comming out of Michigan and with the added weight (don't tell me he doesn't look bigger than last year, listed weight be damned) he's getting slower and becoming even more of a liability. By letting him slim back down we could increase his effectiveness against bot the pass and the run as long as we can slide someone else in the middle who can take on blockers. Bowens has taken over Brad Kassell's spot on the inside but hasn't done much to distinguish to prove he can supplant Barton, and his career title of "pass rushing specialist" seems to suggest that he does f#ck all against the run. Still, he has the size to take on guards and he does have some lateral movement.

    Simply speculation on this one but I would like to see how Gholston would fair as an ILB. Bear in mind that I'm not suggesting this as a permenant move, more of a way to get our best players on the field for a given situation (a la Kiwanuka playing LB for the Giants). I know he lacks the proper lateral movement to play in space - his only move appears to be a strong bull rush and in his games at Ohio State the only other thing I've seen from him was beating a man on the outside. However, he does have the size to take on guards and with his bull rush he should have the strength to provide some stout presence against the run by taking up and forcing back blockers, allowing Harris to make the plays behind him.

    As for the pass rush, provided Gholston can make the transition, the possible benefits are worth mentioning. The shortest distance to the QB is right up the gut and the most effective way to collapse the pocket around him is to bull rush the center and guards. Most QB's have the ability to evade rusher from the edges provided they can see/sense them comming. On the other hand, when you have a defender bearing down your throat while you try to get the pass off there's little more you can do than tuck it and hope you hold on, or try and stand tall, gun it out and hope your receiver likes going over the middle. Gholston's biggest asset is his bull rush and putting him behind Jenkins would only improve that. With Jenkins rushing up the gut and occuping two blockers that could leave Gholston alone with the less athletic guards or the fullback, giving him a favorable match up. Add to the fact that he's playing on the same side as Ellis and Pace and you have the potential for one pants-crapping scary strong side. With Jenkins in the middle you have to believe that more often than not one of the three will get through.

    The problems:

    Gholston is still trying to learn how to play OLB in what most imagine to be a diminished role as mainly a pass rusher. He has thus far struggled to make an impact on the field and has had clear problems with digesting the system thus far. Having to make the switch from playing with his hand on the ground to playing from a standing position could be the straw that breaks his brain.

    Not only could asking him to switch positions again inundate his brain to the point of a siezure, but it would be signify that the Jets had given up on him as an OLB and I doubt the coaching staff would be willing to do that only one year after drafting him. Mangini appears to be too stubborn to give up on his schemes and assesments of his system and players until he can no longer deny his failures (not a knock on Mangini, I think this is common among many, if not all, coaches in the NFL).

    There's still the problem of pass coverage across the middle. If Gholston is struggling to get consistent pressure on the QBs from the outside, which was his best asset in college, then he is most likely going to struggle making yet another transition require an even more complex skill set and understanding of the scheme. His lack of an inside move against blockers tells me that his lateral movement just isn't there and would be difficult at best to develop, if not down-right impossible.

    I think it is still worth attempting as a way of getting Gholston to produce. We still need to get a better starting FS(Elam?) than Smith to improve the pass coverage and the running game frankly doesn't need fixing at this point. But if we spent such a high draft pick on the guy than I think the Jets should be looking at every way possible to try and get him on the field and making plays to determine whether or not he's worth the time and the roster spot. As I said before, he doesn't need to take over the starting strong side position and it would be wise for us to bring in someone else to compete for that role regardless of wether or not the CS tries Gholston there. But if we're in an obvious passing down the best way to defend it is to pressure the QB and the best way to do that is right up the middle. Put our best four LBs who can rush the passer out there and let them pin their ears back.

    Sorry for the long and possibly rambling post but I think the topic is worth discussing. It would at least take our minds off of the "we suck/fire <fire most hated coach of the minute>/we're going to blow it against a bad opponent" threads we usually get.
     
    #1 CatoTheElder, Oct 22, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2008
  2. hendersg

    hendersg New Member

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    Well something's not working..We made Russell look like Elway on Sunday. Maybe Bob "Jerkbrain I don't belong in the NFL" Sutton could turn Gholston loose. Then again, that might be asking too much because its innovative and creative and the Jets dont like those words or think like that....
     
  3. NDmick

    NDmick Revis Christ

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    I wouldn't mind the try at ILB, but then he has to make adjustments pre-snap, and even though I like the dude, i know he can't make pre-snap adjustments.

    ILB, SS and CB depth are the big gaps in this defense. On offense its QB, RB, WR, and OL depth.
     
  4. NDmick

    NDmick Revis Christ

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    no they don't use words like that... the words they should use are passive, scared, pussy, and finesse.

    Playing Football like girls is a good metaphor too.
     
  5. WhiteShoeWillis

    WhiteShoeWillis Well-Known Member

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    He looked like Elway? Holy shit what were you smoking?
     
  6. hendersg

    hendersg New Member

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    Well considering he stood tall in the pocket, was never touched once, and fired rockets at will, I wish I was smoking something to ease the pain of witnessing that..............
     
  7. CatoTheElder

    CatoTheElder 2009 Comeback Poster of the Year

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    Let Harris, Pace, or Thomas make the presnap judgements and tell Gholston what to do. He doesn't need to make the reads necessarily, just be able to listen to the guys who do.
     
  8. WhiteShoeWillis

    WhiteShoeWillis Well-Known Member

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    He was sacked twice, and completed about 50% of his passes for 200 yards and a TD. He hardly looked anything like Elway.
     
  9. ukilledkenny

    ukilledkenny You bastards!

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    damn elway was an average qb who led his team to 16 points through 5 quarters of play? he threw for like 170 yards if that. the raiders offense wasn't exactly going up and down the field. im pretty sure elway today could put on the pads and run that offense more efficiently than russell.

    being frusterated over the loss to oakland is one thing. saying such outlandish things doesn't make anything better, or worse.
     
  10. Italian Seafood

    Italian Seafood New Member

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    We should have kept Vilma.

    That's right, I said it.
     
  11. ukilledkenny

    ukilledkenny You bastards!

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    i wasn't opposed to keeping vilma. now if we keep vilma who is not on the team this year though? no way we keep vilmas contract and get everyone we signed/traded for. now who dont we get? that would be a determining factor in if i would say we should have kept vilma.
     
  12. Italian Seafood

    Italian Seafood New Member

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    They could have figured that out as they went through the off season. I just think it's too hard to find good young players to be getting rid of one for no real reason. Good coaching staffs adjust to the talent they have to some degree, Harris could have stayed inside and play Vilma outside.
     
  13. CatoTheElder

    CatoTheElder 2009 Comeback Poster of the Year

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    Hey, I love non-sequitur: I shouldn't have eaten eggs today! Vilma isn't the damn issue here. We're running a 3-4 without him, I want to see us try and improve with what we have and get our first round goliath on the G-d damn field and making some plays! We need a guy who can take up blockers and someone who can cover between the hash marks. Neither of which Vilma could do effectively in this defense.

    As for keeping Vilma, sure let's have a 6'1" 230 lbs linebacker try to rush the passer against a LT or keep contain and stand up a pulling guard, he didn't know how to do it against someone with only two or three steps to their speed so of course it will be easier going against a 300+ lbs guy with a full head of steam! While we're at it lets' reverse time and draft Sapp so we can bitch and moan about him getting traded away by Parcells who wanted to run a 3-4 because Sapp couldn't save Rich Kotite's offensive woes. I see the same correlation there as I do with Vilma and our current defensive problems.
     
    #13 CatoTheElder, Oct 22, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2008
  14. FriendlyGiantsFan

    FriendlyGiantsFan New Member

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    Too mean...
     
  15. Italian Seafood

    Italian Seafood New Member

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    Vilma was on the team last year, I don't think it's that much of a reach to say we should have kept him. Harris is better in that position, Vilma in my opinion is good enough a LB to play for anyone if you use him right. We move guys all around anyway, why not keep a good player if you already have one? What did we get for him? A draft pick?
     
  16. FriendlyGiantsFan

    FriendlyGiantsFan New Member

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    I don't think Vilma was suited for a 3-4. He just doesn't have th size that linebackers in that system do. In a 3-4 you distribute the bulk of that extra DT you don't line up. Part of it goes towards having a big-ass nose tackle and the rest is spread amongst the linebackers. You need the two ILBs to be big enough to stand up to a guard while still maintaining sideline to sideline speed. Very often you can't find this so you get one bigger guy to eat up blocks while another roams in space (I think the idea in the OP is to have Gholston eat up blocks in the middle and maybe even penetrate). The OLBs have to be big enough to contain in the run game and rush the passer. Vilma lacks the size to do this. The scheme is an integral part of getting success out of the player. Mangini knows the 3-4 best and Vilma can't play the 3-4. Hence, bye-bye Vilma.
     
  17. abyzmul

    abyzmul R.J. MacReady, 21018 Funniest Member Award Winner

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    If Gholston ever turns into anything at OLB, something that hope for but at this point am not sure that I expect, I can still see Barton taking a walk and Pace moving to the inside.
     
  18. masivemunkey

    masivemunkey Member

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    I don't think we have gotten anything yet. Vilma has been really good in New Orleans this season though so we could get up to a 2nd round pick. He already has 63 tackles and 3 passes defended. Who knows, with that 2nd round pick maybe we pick up another David Harris caliber ILB.
     
  19. Raiderjoe

    Raiderjoe Banned

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    Maybe Russell not as good as Elway now, but in a another year, he might be even better than elway.
    Did you see the Jet defensivelineman who got a hand of Jamarcus Russell pass , only to see
    the ball still get down the field to Javon Walker. what a cannon.
     
  20. Raiderjoe

    Raiderjoe Banned

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    J Russell was 17- 30 for 203 WITH NO INTERCEPTIONS. He already outperformed a future hall of famer in brett favre. who was 21- 38- 197 WITH 2 INTERCEPTIONS.

    Don't worry abot Jamarcus russell in time, he going to be one top Qbs in this league.
     

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