Are you serious??? You are really kidding yourself, if that was the case Chad would have never been yanked. The CS and FO run the team not the players, hit me back when you get out of the land of make believe. The people in charge want Kellen to start they drafted him, th fact that he has not is a direct result of his performance, not any other excuses you can think of.
First of all it's not a criticism at all, it's a comparison, and I don't see how it is unfair. Let me spell it out for you further: Ken O'Brien: 1983: Rookie drafted by new coach, doesn't see the field. 1984: Starts games in the second half of a disappointing season, takes his lumps, learns the ropes. 1985: Third year with same offense/coaching staff, steps into job, wins 11 games. Kellen Clemens: 2006: Rookie drafted by new coach, doesn't see the field. 2007: Starts games in the second half of a disappointing season, takes his lumps, learns the ropes. 2008: Third year with same offense/coaching staff.... If anything it's an optimistic comparison, especially given the fact that QBs are able to step in much quicker now than they did in the 80s. If that to you is an "unfair criticism" of Clemens, maybe you're a bit too defensive of your boy and not looking at things objectively.
It's amazing you are not the coach wearing his rings. Maybe he feels he was wrong in drafting KC, who has yet to beat out the "Girl" on the team. Nobody is perfect, I hardly agree 100% with any other human being, but again I think it is ridiculous to think that this entire regime is not pulling for their own guy. This built in excuse you are trying to install, is not flying, you know like a Chad pass.
Chad was yanked four games too late because his play was so bad it was embarrassing for him to be allowed to start anymore. If you don't think Coles being one of the most vocal supporters for Chad last year had anything to do with him being given the longest rope in New York sports History your out of your mind. Chad is the most overrated player to ever play in this town in any sport. He would have been cut or benched on every team in the Nfl other than the Chiefs and Jets! Do you know how many coaches have been run out of town because of their players. Get back to me in a few months when Randolph is out of here because of his lazy Mets! As bad as Kellen was he still managed to win 3 games less the six year experience Chad had!
So Coles had all the say with Chad starting and none with him getting yanked??? I agree with you about Willie, but this is not a comparable situation. What you fail to realize is Kellen is this regimes guy not Chad. Chad started because they obviously did not feel Kellen was ready, thinking that they take orders from Coles is fairy tales, you are dreaming, believing. Do me a favor look up Chad's numbers in comparison to every Jets QB there ever was, and then tell me about Chad having "the longest rope in New York sports History," and how he "is the most overrated player to ever play in this town in any sport." Those comments take the cake, I really have not nothing more to discuss with such stupidity, have a great day.
All it takes is for one respected Vet to start whining on a losing team to create a snowball effect for a whole team. Coles is Chads number one target not necessarily Clemens. Find me a player as mediocre as Chad to have ever been defended this much in this city? We argue on this board for months about a guy who is barely over 500 in his carer and can't even throw a decent 10 yard out without having it jumped by a third string corner and folds like a deck of cards every January!
You're going to have a lot of fun with this kid, he's on here 12 months a year bashing Chad Pennington, win or lose. You didn't realize that Coles runs the team? That's why he was the last one to get his extension, because he handles the books too, he wanted to make sure he took care of everyone else first and kept us under the cap.
Im sure you will have plenty of Chad will take us to the Sb don't get discouraged pep talks for him. Your on here defending Chad 12 months a year!
I'm not even on here 12 months a year, largely because of discussions like this one. And I've said over and over I don't care who plays, but anyone who isn't vehemently behind Clemens is considered here to be a "Chad supporter". There is apparently no place for objectivity on here.
I'm not defending Chad but your logic is silly, kindergarten crap. If Clemens was that much better he would have got the job, right now Clemens has not beat out a... "500 carer QB who can't even throw a decent 10 yard out without having it jumped by a third string corner and folds like a deck of cards every January." The fact that he has not is scary, and you are all gun hoe on him, making up conspiracy theories to defend him. You do realize that he has not been handed the job, and has to compete with this... "500 carer QB who can't even throw a decent 10 yard out without having it jumped by a third string corner and folds like a deck of cards every January." yet again. I know, I know it's Coles' fault, and on the Rangers board it's Jagr's fault come one man, wake up and piss the world's on fire!!! I can not carry on dialog with such stupidity, Chad is not the only reason we are .500 under him, and if Coles is calling the shots how come he did not get a new deal and only a guarantee on the one in place???
I took your previous post on this to mean that we should be able to see Clemens perform this coming year as well as Ken O'Brien did in 85. I merely mentioned that while O'Brien had a great year that year, that was in some measure due to the fact that he had a much better team around him than the current personnel comprise. The skill players in the passing attack were one of the best groups to ever play for the Jets, including the SB year. To expect Clemens to have that kind of year and otherwise be a failure would not be fair. If your point is merely that Clemens should be able to prove himself the starter, I would agree with you, but once again O'Brien's situation was much different. O'Brien was as one of the top picks in the draft, picked ahead of Dan Marino (ugh). His first year the starter was Richard Todd, who left the team at the end of the year. Tood's backup, never the undisputed starter, was Pat Ryan. Ryan and O'Brien shared QB duties in O'Brien's second season, and O'Brien was the favorite to take over in his third year. Now, none of those circumstances are reasons why Clemens should not be able to displace Chadwick. I am merely saying there are differences in the respective situations.You on the other hand see this as an apples to apples comparison. It is not.
I think it's apples to apples in terms of Clemens' readiness to win the job. I agree O'Brien had a great offense to work with and, as I said, I'm not setting 11-5 as the bar for Clemens based on that. But if you look at the QBs there are similarities there as well. Ryan's arm was suspect, he was the veteran leader who could spark an offense in various ways, while O'Brien was the high draft pick with the big arm. Similar to what we have here, except Clemens was a high 2 instead of a low 1 in the draft, not that much different. The biggest difference is that Pennington is a more accomplished starter than Ryan was, he was mostly a backup, but if you look just at Clemens Jet history up to now and the skill sets of the two QBs, it's very similar situation for him. Not exactly the same, but very similar.
Your sarcasm is duly noted, but does not make for an effective argument. I don't pretend to be the HC of the Jets, and beyond that do not pretend to be incapable of making mistakes. It seems to be your argument that we should not question Mangini's decisions. If I am wrong about that I apologize. I don't know on what you base the notion that Mangini has a vested interest in advancing Clemens over Chadwick. That was clearly not in evidence last season. I frankly do not think a logical case can be made for how long Mangini left Chad in there, particularly after how well Clemens did in the second half of the Ravens game. The fact of the matter is sometimes as many as a third of HC's get canned in an off season, and it is not atypical for that fraction to exceed one fifth. Then there are the HC's who are mediocre, but not bad enough to get fired. Clearly not all of them are above reproach, assuming those who get fired made a mistake or two somewhere along the road. So, I don't buy your baseless notion that Mangini is desperate to get Clemens in there, and I certainly don't buy that he is above criticism, and we should just defer unquestioningly to his decisions and approach.
I think EM stuck with CP due to locker room politics. Most of the players started and ended their careers with CP. The old locker room politics are gone, or at least not in CP's favor. The younger players are going to side with KC because their skills will not be limited. With CP your 4.2-4.3 speed is limited to patterns of 5 to 6 yards giving LB's open shots at you. WR's should be going downfield. The WC offense in NY is dead, as is CP as a starter.
Clemens is not in the same position O'Brien was in. What was missing on the 1985 Jets was a QB. What's missing on the 2008 Jets is a QB and about half the other starters being effective also. The 1982 Jets went to the AFC Championship game. What Chad inherited in 2001 was what O'Brien inherited in 1985. What Clemens is inheriting is what Richard Todd inherited in 1977. That's the comparison that is actually historically accurate. If you expect Clemens to perform as well as Chad and O'Brien, who inherited MUCH better teams then you are setting yourself up to be disappointed in a big way because this Jet's team is nowhere near the 1985 or 2001 rosters. Let's compare just to make things clear: RB - 1985 Freeman McNeil, 2001 Curtis Martin, 2008 Thomas Jones. FB - 1985 Tony Paige, 2001 Richie Anderson (Jerald Sowells in the wings), 2008 Tony Richardson (a broken down 36 year old who went to the Pro Bowl last year as a career achievement in a conference that has no fullbacks to speak of) RB2 - 1985 Johnny Hector, 2001 Lamont Jordan, 2008 Leon Washington WR - 1985 Al Toon, 2001 Laveranues Coles (before the toe), 2008 Jerrico Cotchery WR2 - 1985 Wesley Walker, 2001 Wayne Chrebet, 2008 Laveranues Coles (breaking down to injuries) TE - 1985 Mickey Shuler, 2001 Anthony Becht, 2008 Chris Baker Offensive line - 1985 Marvin Powell (5 time Pro Bowl, 3 time All-Pro), Joe Fields (2 time Pro Bowl, 1 time All-Pro), Dan Alexander (182 games started for the Jets), Jim Sweeney (156 games started for the Jets) 2001 Kevin Mawae (6 time Pro Bowl, 2 time All-Pro), Jason Fabini (114 games started for the Jets), Randy Thomas (125 NFL starts) 2008 Nick Mangold (looks very promising), Alan Faneca (7 time Pro Bowl, 5 time All-Pro and the Jets HAD to sign him to have any hope of not going 5-11 next year), D'Brickashaw Ferguson (we'll see) If you looked at the situation last year it would have been even clearer, given the enormous yawning gap between Faneca and Clarke at LG. The Jets could go 6-10 or 7-9 this year with Clemens putting up a 72 rating and it would be an enormous success given where they started 2007 at.
Lets stick to reality here, I never said "he is above criticism, and we should just defer unquestioningly to his decisions and approach" or that he was "incapable of making mistakes." Maybe I took your comprehension for granted but I though this statement made by me was a dead give away against your imagined notion, "Nobody is perfect, I hardly agree 100% with any other human being." I guess we will agree to disagree, I don't buy your name calling of a guy who did all he could as a leader putting his body on the line for this franchise, it's disrespectful and childish. I'm all for that but not when it comes to my team's guys, I am a JETS fan. You act like he should pack it in, well he is a warrior, and he has beat out your knight Gaston, 2 years and guess what the coaches called for another competition. I really hoper for the Jets sake Kellen wins the job, but if not your conspiracy theories won't cut it, you may have to admit your boy is a 3 time loser to a "girl." (I hope not) I'm also not buying this Mr. Rogers like notion that Clemens was so much better than Chad who you call a girl, but the regime that drafted him, just could not see it or purposely gave the reigns to a women QB. That makes no sense at all, and I can not comprehend such wild imagination.
How do you know what's missing on the 2008 Jets when they haven't gone to camp yet? In 1985 they were coming off of back to back 7-9 seasons, three years removed from the playoffs and with a different coach. The Jets were 10-6 and in the playoffs the year before last with this staff and a lot of the same players. Granted there's a lot less continuity in the league now than there was then, but this is hardly Richard Todd in 1977. That was a brand new coaching staff starting over with all rookies, no such thing as free agency, and with Todd basically a rookie himself trying to replace a legend.
I don't know how much more of an accomplished starter Chad is compared to Ryan at this point of Chad's career. Ironically there are more parallels than you mentioned. Compare 06 for Chad with 84 for Ryan (the year before Ryan gave way to O'Brien as the undisputed starter). Chad and 17 tds and 16 ints. Ryan had 14 of each. Chad's ypa was 6.9, Ryan's 6.8. While Chad's qb rating was nearly ten points higher, that was due to Ryan's lower passing percentage, despite the near equal ypa numbers. When you compare Ryan's numbers for that year with Chad's last year, the numbers are pretty much the same. But the Jets were 7-9 in 84. Last year they were 4-12, with Clemens starting three of the wins. Maybe Ryan was even better than Pennington, at least at this point of Chad's career.
