I think Chad has a good chance of starting because he is absolutely the best Qb in the Nfl when it comes to winning the Job when he has the red shirt on in a controlled setting in Training camp where the pressure of a Cb jumping his routes or a De Stressing him into his happy foot mistakes is there. Tangini is in a very tough situation playing Ne and Sd the second and third games of the season. If Cp starts we could be 0-3 going into the 4th week against Arizona because Miami will have absolutely no respect for Chad in game one and can win that game on emotion! If Kellen starts and we end up 8-8 or 9-7 with a good outlook for the future they have time. If Chad starts and we do not get out of the second round and the season ends on one of his classic meltdowns then Tangini could be out the door this year.
That is such an ahistorical point of view. Do some QB's come in and burn it up right away? Sure. Do some QB's take awhile to get their feet under them and then become very good? Absolutely. I'm not going to post the list again, but the majority of Super Bowls have been won by QB's who struggled a bit at the start of their careers. This is true even though Joe Montana and Tom Brady didn't. And of course the greatest QB, in terms of immediate performance, never won a super bowl. In fact five of the top ten all time passing yards leaders (and you know they came flying out of the gate to make that list) never won a super bowl.
I feel if this happens, after the 2009 season its time to look for another franchise QB. I can see this happening in the 08 draft with this same scenario. Our 1st round pick would go directly towards a QB. Since Woody guaranteed Mangini's job for 2009, going 6-10 wouldn't matter. This would have a positive outlook, knowing we have a QB for the future and the team would only get better- keeping the coaching staff in place as well. This is a better scenario.
You call the turnstile at tackle and Wallace Wright and Brad Smith as his main targets in some games a trial by fire. That was an execution I was pleased to have seen him survive. Kellen came in weeks too late. He should have never been taken out after the Ravens game. When he came back he was doomed to fail. Finishing 3-4 with that mess shows what promise he can have if surrounded by a halfway decent team.
This isn't "right away" and he's already had a while to "get his feet under him." Again, it's his third year, and he now has about a half season of real game action which should have made this off season more productive for him in terms of film, etc. I'm not saying he has to win the Super Bowl this year or he sucks, maybe he'll be good, I don't know. I'm just disputing this notion that he's still a novice with a huge learning curve and we all have to sit here for a few more years to wait for him to get it. We've been through this process with him, it's time to play and win. Clemens is in the exact same position as Ken O'Brien was in 1985. First year he didn't play at all, played the last half of a crappy season in 1984 and by 1985 he was ready to go and he was successful. And this was over 20 years ago when it took QBs longer to step into the job than it does today. Look at some of the guys that come out now, they are going by their third year if they're going to be any good.
Football is a team game. If you want to bring up history, don't stop the history lesson before you include some important facts. Last year Clemens pretty much did not have Coles available. He had Cotch, who was frequently double teamed, and McCariens, who has since been cut, and pretty much no other help at wideout. Some are fans of Baker, of course, but to me he's average at best. O'Brien in 85? Starting wideouts were Walker and Toon, I would say both of whom were better than Coles, but certainly were both better than Cotch. Frequently unremembered Kurt Sohn had his best year at wideout with 39 receptions that year. Starting TE was Mickey Shuler, only the Jets' best TE ever, who also led the team in receptions. McNeil, Tony Paige and Johnny Hector were all part of the mix, too. In short, as much as I am a Ken O'Brien fan, it's apples and oranges to compare what Clemens had to work with than what O'Brien had. I am fairly new around here, Seafood, but I have noticed you are one of the typical Chad Fans who wants to hold Clemens to a high and unfair standard, meanwhile Chadwick throws pick sixes with alarming frequency and generally throws like a girl, and that doesn't bother you. I have come to accept this kind of double standard from Chad Fans, but reaching back to 85 to dump on Clemens is not going unchallenged.
And it is pretty clear you are going to be on anyone who gives the kid some criticism, even when it is warranted. Yes, Clemens did not have a full cast last year and the OL was horrible. All us Chad fans get it. Nonetheless, after three years he's going to have to start tying his own cleats or he's never going to get out there. He got much needed experience last year, even if the offense sucked. This year he should be able to take that and a new revamped line and do something with it. He should be able to beat out Pennington if he's going to at least be an average QB. How long are we to wait on his highness? Four, five, six years to develop? I think three is plenty. It's now or never time.
"Chadwick throws pick sixes with alarming frequency and generally throws like a girl" Amazingly Clemens has not beat him out for the job yet, and what if he does not this season either?
His first season there was a "competition" but he was a rookie. You couldn't really expect him to win that. Last season the job was handed to Pennington before TC even started. This season will be his first true competition with Pennington that he SHOULD win. If he doesn't than we're still looking for our franchise QB.
I'm not dumping on Clemens at all, I just don't think it takes more than three years in the same offense for a QB to be able to win in the NFL. Last year was a bad team, in my opinion you have to throw out the numbers for both QBs. In Clemens' case it's all we have to go by, but it's still game experience that should help him out. Certainly better than not having any experience at all, he played nearly half a season. To compare apples to apples, O'Brien's 1984 team wasn't that good and the Jets were something like 1-6 with him, but it didn't deter him from becoming a good QB in 1985. Of course drating Toon in 85 helped and that was a very good team, but this year we've beefed up the O-line and should be better. I think it's a valid comparison, doesn't mean Clemens has to go 11-5, but he should be ready to play if he's ever going to be. Nice of you to classify me as a "Chad fan", truth is I'm a Jet fan and I just want us to win, regardless of who plays. Sorry I'm not joining the brigade of retards here who want to make excuses for one guy and run the other guy out of town for having the same bad results with the same bad offense last year. As I said above, you have to throw last year out for both QBs because we couldn't block, couldn't run and couldn't catch.
He had one year of game experience. We have waited on Chad for six years and he is ten times worse than he was in 2006 today!
What does the fact that there is even a competition tell you? Why does he have to compete for a job against "Chadwick who throws pick sixes with alarming frequency and generally throws like a girl?"
Competition is a good thing and there should be one. Clemens and Chad both sucked monkey balls last year. If Chad wins the competition that tells me all I need to know about Clemens.
I agree, and for the Jets sake I hope Clemens can beat out "Chadwick who throws pick sixes with alarming frequency and generally throws like a girl." :up:
Some criticism? I thought I made it pretty clear that I was responding to the comparison to Ken O'Brien in 85. That is an unfair criticism of Clemens, an unfair basis for comparison. That hardly means there are no fair bases for criticism. Ftr, I have no predictions to make about whether Clemens in fact will succeed. He may well not. Plus your math is wrong. After three years would mean after the upcoming season. I have no doubt he will be able to tie his own cleats on this time next year. You want to give him the whole season to play this year to see how good he is? I agree he should be able to beat Pennington out in camp. But I am also leery of Mangini and whether he will be a fair evaluator. Others here have posted about considerations that could lead to a different result. Here's a test for all of us. Let's say the situation as of the week before opening day is ambiguous. For whatever reason. In a close contest, who gets the nod, the benefit of the doubt? I would say Clemens since Chad has no long, even medium, term future here, and we need to see how he does in the regular season, and whether a different direction at Qb might be warranted in the next off season. Something tells me the Chad Fans would answer that one differently.
When Chad took the field in 2002 we knew we had a leader and future QB in place. It is not the same situation as Clemens. That is why I believe Clemens has this year to come out and prove himself - because last year experience was with a terribly equipped offense.
