Kurt, Ellis isn't the cure-all for the Jets either, but I like his upside much more than Gholston's. As Jabba stated, and I agree....."Sedrick Ellis is an Elite player and Gholston is a tier 2 player". Both players have their risks...Ellis moving into a 3-4 and Gholston with OLB responsibilities. I just believe there is less risk with Ellis. I believe Ellis has the ability to become a NT in the Wilfork mode, but I will admit there is hint of doubt in my mind. I have 2 Issues the Jets are "STUCK" with and we have no recourse at the moment, that are somewhat related to this debate. 1) Mangini being stubbon and running the 3-4 without the proper players. I don't need to elaborate. I hope nobody says "Gholston or Ellis would be the proper player", no one knows that for certain. Let me also say, I'm no expert on Ellis, I have seen him play, but not like I've seen Gholston. What I have seen of Ellis, is impressive and he's an awesome person and leader. The Senior Bowl week reinforced Ellis' ability. 2) The Problem I have with this entire scenario at #6, the Jets are in a terrible position to get an Elite player. I really hope some Team in the Mid -teens or early 20's, wants to trade up and wants a player bad enough for us to pick-up an additional 2nd rd pick and even a 3rd also. The only 2 players I want at the 6th pick are C Long or DMC, and they will be long gone. Jake is a great player, but I'm not spending huge money on a RT at #6, I'll wait to the top of Rd 2 to get my RT. Dorsey & Ellis are great and would be OK, but not the best fit for Mangini's defense. Gholston, Phillips,......is where the talent drops right in the #6 range.
Nope - didnt say that, but I'll explain in greater detail. I’m looking at the offseason as a whole -- draft & free agency. The goal is to get this team to compete at a playoff level ASAP. We need to change the starting players at certain positions. Some positions will be best filled in free agency, & some will be filled in the draft. There’s no way we’re getting a top flight pass-rushing OLB in free agency. The only ones I’d consider (T. Suggs & K. Dansby) are getting franchised or signed long term. So we have to address OLB in the draft by getting Gholston at #6 overall or Groves at round 2 (Groves might not be there, so that is a risk). Barring any trade-down at the draft to stockpile more picks (which I am in favor of), we HAVE to take Gholston at #6 ------ if the draft were today. Obviously, there is a lot of time between now & then to change things, but I can only go on today. RT is certainly a need, but this year there are a lot in free agency at OT that we could potentially go after -- J. Gross, S. Andrews, S. Locklear, G. Foster & others. Same thing at OG --- J. Bell, R. Lilja, & others. And we have the cap room. This year’s draft certainly has excellent talent at OT. YES - NT is a need, but IMO Sione Pouha played really well in the latter half of the season. If we could get a equal ability player in free agency -- Isaac Sapoga from San Fran or Ethan Kelley from Cleveland to get in a solid rotation w/him -- then we may have filled that position in the short term. IMO, the quickest way for the JETS to compete at a playoff level in the 2008 is to fill the starting RT (Stacy Andrews) & LG (Jacob Bell) positions in free agency. Pouha at NT w/1 of the other 2 guys I mentioned in a rotation. V. Gholston w/the 1st pick. 2nd rounder I want either a WR or DT. That could conceivably be 5 starting positions filled / replaced w/better players. That’s why I said I didn’t want that. We draft Ellis at 1 & Cherilous at 2, granted, we conceivably fill NT & RT, but then who the hell is gonna rush the QB? Hobson? There are no options in FA & trying to find the OLB pass rusher in round 3 or later is a huge risk. I would be happier grabbing a NT like Ahyta Rubin w/our 3rd round pick
That would be awesome to grab that many starters in one off seaseon but imo its pretty unrealistic. I think your looking at this the wrong way, At best we will be 8-8 next year, inexpierenced qb ol in shambles and a undersized dl doesn't actually breed sucess. But sayin that I think gholston would be much less of a risk, and if he does well at the combine which i think he will. He will solidfy himself into that #6 pick. Ellis is good but everyone that says he is a much better prospect the drob i dont see it, he is essentially the exact same player. A dominating 3 point technique dt in college. One didn't work in the 34 so why would another. I think we should most likely go after a guard in fa and get either Jacob Bell or Ryan Lilja in FA. There is a bery deep ot class, so there are alot of good options in either round two or 3. All in all, what im trying to say is that there are no real 34 dline prospects that would make sense in round 1, i could see us take a kentwan balmer or a dre moore in round 2 though. What i'm trying to say i guess is we should build our defense the right way and it all starts by getting that olb that everyone has to key on, Vernon Gholston. Lastly, i think Wr is not a big need and unless we trade LC we should not be thinking about one
WR is definitely a need. Our depth was pathetic when either LC or JC got injured. This is a situation similar to our offensive line woes - where if we don't look to the future - that future will be upon us biting us in the ass before we know it. A large target in the end zone would be a great help as well.
GOd im so torn. THe way I see it right now we have to go Ellis because he is an ELITE PROSPECT. SO lets say we do that, is it possible for a guy like Crable or Bell to be there in rd 3?????
Actually if you want the truth D rob was a FAR better prospect than Ellis and arguably better than Dorsey. Why? B/c he graded out just as well on tape, had just as good if not better physical skills and didnt have anywhere NEAR the help around him on D that the latter 2 did.Alot of Jet fans refuse to acknowledge it b/c they want to hate on bradway and D rob...but D rob may have been the best DT draft prospect since Sapp. He was developing into a very good if not dominanting 3T DT when we made the switch to a scheme that didnt eactly fit his strengths. If we're talking in terms of a 3-4 NT, yes Ellis is the better prospect than D rob. He has a wider base, uses his hands better and is a bit taller.
I disagree strongly. Sorry...the guy has had 30.5 TFL and 22.5 sacks in his last 26 games of his college career (21 as a starter). Thats a very, very good player....the fact that he's very in shape shouldn't be a knock just because a bunch of guys on the internet liked his pics. And yes...he has played linebacker. He was actually recruited as a linebacker. He plays the DE/OLB position in their defense. He's not Champ Bailey, but for a 21 year old pass rusher he's very competent in coverage. He's certainly given hope that he can be competent at the NFL level. I don't think he's as huge a risk as you're making him out to be. Generally, DE/OLBs don't bust catastrophically...their whole speed, athleticism, pass rush ability combo tends to make them very easy to utilize in a 3-4. Merriman isn't/wasn't the best in coverage...so he blitzed like 75% of the time he was on the field. The thing about Gholston is that his size, speed, pass rush ability, and athleticism is elite at a position where all of that is at a premium. The knock against what I just said is that the Parcells/BB 3-4 that Mangini seems to be building is a very complicated and (for the lack of a better word) sophisticated one. DeMarcus Ware was dropped into coverage alot more than most Cowboy fans wanted under Parcells, because this D wants their players to be complete players. Gholston's interviews will be very important with Mangini and the Jets. Whatever Ware did to impress Parcells in interviews, I want to see in Gholston.
The scheme wasn't DRob's problem, Fergie leaving was. And his knee problem without a decent backup. Ellis is a smaller DRob. We need a real Dt/DE for the 3-4. Ellis is up there in age and we have been chasing this position for 2 years through free agency.
Well ...You have your opinion, I have mine, the difference between your opinion and mine, is that I've seen every game Gholston has played. You want to base your opinion on his size, speed and and athletic ability. He's a great pass rusher, no doubt, he can wreck havoc in the backfield. If you want a a OLB to just rush the passer...Gholston's your man, there isn't much better. I want a well rounded player at OLB that can do it all. Gholston is as I said, is "one trick pony". NFL offensive cooridinators will expolit Ghoston's weakness. To neutralize Gholston, let him rush on the outside and the QB will dump a screen to the open area. I rather not spend the sixth pick on a DE converted to OLB......there are some good options in Rd 2 or 3......Quentin Groves & Cliff Avril. In fact, Groves may have a better upside than Gholston, injuries have hurt his stock. What I've seen of Groves, he has better coverage skills than Gholston and is an excellent pass rusher. YOU ARE WRONG......Gholson played DE...95 % of the time....his hand was down....please don't insult my intelligence and mislead the posters in this thread. Gholston has played some(very little) standing up, when the DC moved him along the line, but he hasn't played OLB. Do you live in Columbus? Have you seen everyone of Gholston's games? OSU played the majority of their defense in a Pro 4-3, Gholston at DE. I don't claim to have the answer what the Jets should do with the 6th pick, I just think Gholston shouldn't be our first option.
If he played with his hand down 95% of the time how do you know he is bad in coverage? You couldn't possibly have seen enough of his coverage ability in those few plays to say that he is a pass rusher and nothing else.
It's diffiicult to answer, he hasn't played OLB, even though some think he's played OLB at OSU. Gholston will have his up's and downs. He will be excellent shedding blocks and getting into the backfield to make plays. In space, when the runner gets to the second level he' going to struggle, unless the runner is coming at Gholston head-on, than the runner is toast.
The other problem is we just gave Bryan(Invisible Man) Thomas a massive signing bonus to play the same position as Gholston. I could see it for Chris Long, but not Gholston. I'd rather trade down.
Gholston...poor lateral movement & stiff hips. I'm done debating. I've given plenty of reasons why I would pass on Gholsten at 6, we are beating a dead horse. Lets' see what happens with Gholston's career and you can call me out next year if I'm wrong.
I?d take that. Harris is maybe the best LB when it comes to defend a screen, i?ve ever seen, and Vilma?s not bad at doing it either. When they would have to throw Sreens and run Draws all day to keep Gholston from kicking ass, that?s what we need, to take our D to the next step. We need a passrusher despretly, and since there are no in FA, we gotta draft one on day 1. If i would have the choice between Gholston in Rd1 or Groves in Rd2, i?d take Groves in a heartbeat, but after he ran his 40, he?ll be a lock to go in Rd1. I see you?re worried about his coverage, and i understand you?re point, but i don?t think it?s really that big of an issue. 1. there?s a pretty good chance, that he can learn to become a decend coverage LB, his athletic should help him there. 2. he?s not asked to do that much of coverage, most of the time he?s gonna rush, if he doesn?t his main duties are flat or curl, or maybe cover a TE 1 on 1, and he?ll have help over top and against top flight TEs. It?s not like he would have coverage duties like 43 LBs, or 34 ILBs. 3. if a OC really manages to get after him in coverage, it won?t be that big of a deal. Catches in the flat or curl with help over the top aren?t too dangerous for big yac, and TEs (exept the top ones, which he won?t have to cover anyway) aren?t either. If a OC gets him in Coverage, he deserves is 6-10 yards for it, if that happens once a game, and he has 12 sacks a year, that?s OK with me. i got one question, why are you so scared about his coverage, when he has imo one much bigger problem, which is his motor? I saw 3-4 games of him this year, and i?m really concerned about his motor. Even in the Michigan game, where he had 3 sacks, it seems he only gives it all on 50% of the plays, maybe less. When the play goes away from him, he doesn?t pursuite and he doesn?t really have a second efford in passrush. You saw much more of him, than i did, did i just see the wrong games, or is this really as big a problem, as i fear it is?
1. I also saw the vast majority of Gholston's games. 2. NFL offensive coordinators can't just dump a screen every play. They don't do it to Merriman. They didn't do it to LT. They didn't do it to JAbe. 3. Why not? Most 3-4 OLBs are former college DE's...Ware...Vrabel...Merriman (he played anything and everything)...Suggs...Wimbley...Abraham...Groves was a DE...Avril was a DE...Spencer was a DE last year...Colvin was a DE...thee list can go on... 4. I agree on Groves in that he offers a ton of upside, but better in coverage? The guy doesn't/didn't even drop into coverage all that much, and he didn't look all that great doing it...but he got a pass because much of it was done after he dislocated his toes. 5. Yes, Gholston did play linebacker. I'm not insulting your intelligence. You typing YOU ARE WRONG is insulting my intelligence. Me disagreeing with you and telling why is not insulting your intelligence. Gholston actually did play a DE/OLB role in Ohio States' D. He did stand up as well as play with his hands down.
Dware.......As I stated earlier, I'm done debating. You and I are Oil and Water on this topic. I respect most of your opinions, but I'm not going to argue with someone who believe's Gholston played OLB at OSU. I sat in the stands in the Horseshoe, I watched their games on TV and I do have 20/20 vision. If you want to get in you're usually last word go ahead....I'm done on this topic.
You're right man. Gholston is a very versatile player, but he lined up on the d-line at OSU. His athleticism is looks good in the eyes of NFL scouts -- that's why most think he can make the transition to 3-4 OLB.
