Both of you guys are partially wrong. The answer lies somewhere in the middle. In 2002 Chad could face adversity (until the Raiders game), and never had a deer in the headlights look. That look started after the wrist, got worse after the shoulder, and became a major problem after the second shoulder. It became a deal breaker after he limped off the field in week 1. At that very moment, Chad was no longer a NFL QB when facing adversity. As for game planning to constantly fall way behind, that is pretty much nonsense. When your offense consistantly goes 3 and out, kicks a field goal, or turns it over, you cannot expect any defense to keep the opponent from putting points on the board, especially when your QB is throwing half of the OTHER teams TD's. I have no idea what we have in Clemens, but I know what we have in Chad now, and it's no longer an NFL QB. :sad:
It's not having it both ways. Most of us loved Chad despite the Oakland game. We happily gave hime his time to "learn the ropes". I don't see how supporting Clemens now is any different at all. And yes, when he has been in the league for 5-6 years, we will be able to judge his entire body of work, whether we cite 2007 or 2012.
I will be the first to say that it was not Chad's fault what happened to this team this year and nobody could be expected to excel with that line. I think Chad was done long before Kendall left. In 2006 we were 10-6 but we only beat 2 teams with winning records. Against the better teams the same thing happened in 2006 that happend this year with Chad at the Helm. He has reached his peak and has no where left to go but down. If Chad was the Qb of the Patriots they don't go undefeated or to the Superbowl. The Chad of 2002 is gone and unfortunately he does not have the talent to take us to the next level anymore no matter who we surround him with.
Supporting Clemens isn't different, I support him too, he's a Jet. But people here trash Chad for that Oakand game all the time, it's a double standard. Because Chad stepped right in, already knew the ropes and played so well, he raised the bar for himself--to the point where Jet fans are bitching about 10-win seasons and playoff games. So if people are going to trash him for that game, say he"crumbled" and "the league figured him out that day", etc and all the other nonsense they post about that game, I don't want to hear about giving someone else "years" to make "progress". Apply the same criteria to both guys, that's all I ask.
Who wants to give Kellen Clemens 4 or 5 years to get the hang of it? Still haven't seen that argument made anywhere here. I want to give him a solid opportunity with a decent line going into next season and watch a half season's results to see if he's improving or treading water or regressing. He has to have the line though because that picket fence the Jets have out there right now would make almost anybody look bad. I also think the Jets need to be planning a possible post-Clemens progression. That means drafting another mid-round QB to learn the system and give the Jets some options moving forward if it turns out that Clemens is not the answer. If the offensive line is still as bad next year as it was this year then there's no expectation, on my part at least, that Clemens will improve either. There have been more than a few QB's who got put in lousy circumstances at the start and still managed to pull out a very good career when circumstances improved, but they're in the minority. If the Steelers had cut Terry Bradshaw in 1971 after his second consecutive terrible season behind a porous offensive line they probably never win one super bowl, let alone four in a decade.
No? I spent most of yesterday reading up on FOURTHANDLONG's 5-year plan to knock out the Pats, which somehow invloves going 8-8 and not making the playoffs. All of this I agree with. Again, use the same evaluation of both guys--if you can't block, run or catch, neither QB is going to succeed. Of course Clemens needs a better chance than he had, for the same reason you don't get rid of Chad unless we can upgrade the position, which we probably can't. So fix the line, get someone else that can catch the ball and let the QBs compete for the job in camp. As of now it looks like that's what they are going to try to do.
Come back in June, the same argument will be going on then. There's going to be nothing to settle it until July at the earliest.
First of all if we have a five year plan Clemens will not be a part of it because it means he will have s**ked and we would have had to draft another Qb or sign a veteran to play for our rebuilt team. My plan is three years not Five. It only becomes a five year plan if Chad is at the Helm! 8-8 next year with the Team looking good at the end of the season would be great. I want to build a team not patch together a 10-6 team that will be an obligatory one and done out in the first round of the playoffs! Im sure we can find a backup Qb for less money than Chad so don't get to worried about upgrading the position. Quarterbacks who can go 25-30 for 150 yards come a dime a dozen! We are in Year six of the Chad Pennington Plan. How long do you want to give him?
No, it's not. I had a feeling this thread would have a long shelf life when I created it because it's the biggest problem the NY Jets face. It has the potential of being the biggest problem we face over a 2-3 year time span even, which makes it eclipse even our need to fix the O-line, because that can be brought back to life within a relatively short period of time (for example, bringing in a Terrell Suggs, drafting a huge RG or find suitable guys in F/A, etc.). Our QB dilemma outweighs this because right now, we don't even know for sure what we've got in Clemens! We've finished the season with a huge question mark still hanging over this kid! So, for example, as someone stated awhile ago today, they had at first been thinking that we needed to go find a QB on Day One of the draft, then on second thought, he said, that would be a mistake until we know what Clemens is capable of. And therein lies this huge dilemma for us. You can't even begin to fix what you haven't completely diagnosed as a problem yet. Complicating the matter even more, Pennington stands to make huge money as a backup now while we find out more about Clemens. And we don't dare "waste" a high-round draft pick on another QB this spring until we do, so that's a year down the drain until we know. So we not only lose time until we find out, it costs us more money than we'd ever expected on the day we pulled Chad out of the starting role. There are other periferral, anecdotal costs as well, that most of us haven't even fully considered here yet, but here's my complete list of the actual, REAL cost of this mess so far as I see it (and I'm probably not even scratching the surface). Please feel free to add your own: 1) We could have perhaps traded Penny for a nice 3rd or 4th. That no longer seems possible. We have to keep him here because we don't know what we're going to need. Lord only knows what we could have done with a nice 3rd or 4th pick. The loss of that pick is a hidden cost. 2) Penny stays on the payroll because we don't dare get rid of him. So he plays out his contract as a backup and waves towels on the sidelines for $9 Million ($4.5 per year x2). This ripples down the Cap food chain and weakens the team indirectly, another immeasurable cost. 3) We're losing valuable time. Because we kept Chad in too long (IMO) and also were not able to give Clemens enough protection when he did come in to see how he truly could have handled the 1st team had he been able to get in a groove with more time, we were unable to make a decision this year. We therefore now lose an extra year in resolving the problem if he does not work out. By this time next year, when we find out if Clemens is "the man" or not, the season will be cooked. If he falters, then we have to go into the draft of '09 looking for a very good QB, not just a mid-round '08 pick like we're probably considering now, which has the potential of being a stop-gap waste of a QB pick really, because, if we knew for sure that we needed an ace, our entire thinking would be vastly different as to who we go after. 4) The uncertainty causes potential problems with bringing in good Free Agents. Given a choice and with the same dollars on the table, a F/A wideout will go with a team that they perceive as having potential to take them to the big one. Our situation is so not that right now, Tannenbaum will have to wave MAJOR money at talent to attract them here. More expense that's impossible to measure, not only in terms of real dollar outlay but in extra crippling Cap. 5) The uncertainty has the potential of thowing our WRs off. If Chad completes with Clemens in camp and wideouts don't know whether they're going into Week One with a rifle-arm throwing at them or a Blooper pass, it throws off the timing of their patterns and catches. Also, by not being able to settle in with one guy on handoffs and pitches and the like, Thomas Jones and Leon Washington don't get used to one man either. Between what is surely to be a revamped O-line and the uncertainy of who'll be under center, it has to throw all the timing off just a bit. The cost? Probably a couple of early losses next year that might have been wins had we known where the hell we are and could have instead known who "the man" is going into camp. 6) Game Planning. Certainly not a tangible cost in terms of dollars, but what about the W/L column coming out of the gate? Who do you design plays for... Pennington or Clemens... or maybe neither... maybe it's some guy we draft in the 5th Round who we don't even know yet? The offseason gets screwed up because you really don't know who your QB is yet. I wouldn't want to be Schottenheimer going into TC next year. I certainly think it's a complete waste of time for him to design anything other than what he had on the table for Chad and Clemens this year, because we really don't know where we stand.
I still have yet to see Clemens throw a ball with enough velocity to make this an issue. His fabled superior arm strength remains elusive and so far, if it exists, irrelevent.
Heheh... worse than arm strength is the accuracy issue. Will the ball hit me in the numbers, or will I need to contort my body to catch an inaccurate pass?
I disagree. We had a four-way competition in 2006 and there were no problems. It's the NFL, there has to be competition for jobs unless one guy has cemented himself as the stater, which is not the case with us right now. If pro WRs and RBs can't adjust to a different QB through a whole camp, then we're fucked anyway. Billy Volek just stepped in for Phillip Rivers in the 4th quarter this week and won them a playoff game. When Chad came in for Vinny it was a total contrast in style and the players adjusted beautifully. If you can play you can play. They're pros, they have to adjust.
Wow, that was a long post. :grin: I agree we have some tough questions at the position and a lot of how it turns out will depend on how things happen down the road so it will be tough to say whether it is a horrible spot or just a transitional situation. As far as the payroll is concerned... a lot of teams pay their starting QB's some cash so I don't see this money under Chad as being wasted or draining the team. It is money that is usually going toward the position anyway. So it may be possible that the backup is the one with the fat paycheck, Clemens is still going to be dirt cheap for us. It isn't like we are paying 2 million dollar QB's. For all we know they may come to an agreement about him taking a paycut. We'll have to wait and see. If some team were to come to us and offer us a pretty decent deal we could trade Chad away and pick up one of the journeyman FA QB's out there to back up Clemens. It wouldn't be better than Penny in my opinion, but if the organization HAS given up on Chad and ready to go in another direction - or if the trade deal will help us rebuild more quickly, this could be an option. That would give Clemens his one more year to assess with possibly a stronger OL. If he doesn't show much we draft a QB in 09. Otherwise we keep Pennington and maybe he's the backup, maybe not. If nothing else we know where we stand with him. I'm starting to wonder if drafting someone this year isn't a good idea either way. So we don't know what we have in Clemens? If we draft a kid with potential and Clemens pans out we still have someone that may have some trade value. Like you listed though, a lot of different scenarios to choose from. Some of the decisions depending on what happens between now and when they have to be made may solve themselves one way or another though. Lot of speculation right now.
Two things here. At the end of the Baltimore game he made several throws, on the money that Captain Checkdown coudn't make BEFORE two shoulder surgeries, let alone after it. Secondly Clemens doesn't lay guys out, nor does he throw the ball with such arc and lack of velocity (reminsicent of a slow pitched softball) that defenders can zero in on the guy making the catch. Accuracy doesnt really help when the ball takes 4 seconds to travel 12 yards in the air....
My, my... now look who's defensive. :smile: We'll see how he does once he gets an offseason and some time to reflect.
I can sign on this. You basically covered all of the angles. I have a solution to about half of it: cut Chad as soon as you can. He's not going to be an ok QB for us until the rest of the team is fixed, and even then he is most likely more of a hindrance than a help. (In the best case scenario in which we fix everything in the next year and head into 2009 on a potential super bowl run imagine how you'll feel with Chad behind center, knowing both his physical limitations and his propensity to get injured.)
Not defensive at all. I was a Huge Chad supporter, at the beginning of the season, and I still think that if that s***bag Jarvis Green doesnt roll up on his ankle, we probably would have won 10 games again this year. The only problem is he's basically (especially after two surgeries) the QB equivlant of Marty Schottenheimer. He'll get you 10 wins and a road playoff game.....Maybe 2. But he has to be 100 % healthy to even produce that, and as you saw witht he ankle injury his stregnth is now so borderline that any little thing affects it in a dire manner. End Result.....Zero Upside. OTOH Clemens has demonstrated enough to merit the exploration...
So Clemens is going to realign the divisions and get us a home playoff game? That settles it, start him!
