:beer:what some people fail to remember is that at least 2 offensive lineman left the jets for better contracts (randy thomas, kareem mckenzie) because the jets could not match- too much money under the cap was being tied up under noodle's $64 million contract.:sad:
This part I agree with. Had they kept him we may very well have won the super Bowl by the 1985 or 86 season. Regarding the rest, I think you can put a program in and try to build a team over time, but you can't keep losing while you're doing it or you won't be around to finish the job. That's where a guy like Pennington comes into play. Hopefully Clemens is the franchise guy, but he still has to go out and do it. In the event that he fails, having Pennington still here could be the difference between this regime being here to finish the job or them being out the door and us back to square one. You can't bank your whole existence on an untested QB.
The unproven guy who can throw the ball is a better option than the finished one who can't! When you stink with one of so called smartest Qb's of all time there is not excuse for your performance. Chad will get them out the door quicker than Kellen.
So then Clemens should have no problem winning the job in camp, right? I don't see what you guys all have your panties bunched up about, if Clemens is so much better he'll play. If he's not he won't. The end.
No. Clemens, with 7 real games under his belt, is very unlikely to win the job over Chad, who has been a starter since 2002... The fact of the matter is, their production has been very similar, and Chad has experience on his side. Chad will most likely win an open competition. We will not be able to allow Clemens to progress and show us what he has, if we keep Chad around for an open competition in training camp. If Pennington beats Clemens out, as he likely would, Clemens will not get the opportunity to progress and become a better QB.. Just because he's inexperienced and not a better QB YET, does not mean he shouldn't be given the chance to develop. We knows what we have in Chad, and all signs point to him declining, not improving, and the consensus is that we want better production from our QB. If we let a mediocre, experienced QB compete for a job vs a young inexperienced QB, the young QB may never get in the game, and we'll be stuck with the mediocre QB until he leaves town or retires... Why is that a good plan? It isn't... We're not going to win much any time soon with Chad at the helm... Give Clemens the reigns, and let's see what he's got....
This is pure bullshit and excuses. You're essentially saying here that you want the lesser of the two to play. If Clemens is ever going to be the guy to win us a Super Bowl he should at least be able to win his own job. Chad took over from Vinny who had been in the league 15 years and the offense improved right away. Vinny was around for another year and a half and it caused no problem at all because Chad took the job and made the most of his chance. If Clemens can't do that it's nobody's fault but his own and we'll need another guy anyway.
Not every QB is going to come in right away and be a world beater, that's just not how it works. Most guys are going to need some significant game experience to learn and improve. Just because Chad did it does not mean that is the norm. We know Clemens isn't necessarily a better QB YET. We don't know whether or not he will be able to develop into such. If Chad and Kellen play on a similar level in TC in an open competition, Chad will likely win the job because of his experience and leadership. That doesn't mean that's the best move for the future of the franchise. We know what we have in Chad, and it isn't enough. Chad isn't getting any better. Clemens might. How is this so difficult to grasp?
Right , and also at this moment in time, getting the franchise QB in to lead us into superbowl is not a pressing need , right now. Winning the QB job in TC? How absurd is this? KC may be able to make all the throws but its the playbook that is apparently killing him , or is he going to use a 'dumbed' down version? CP and KC are not going to win anything for this team , look to the future.
How is the playbook killing Clemens? I've heard this a couple of times now I am not sure how we can really know this. It is his second year in the system so while I would not expect him to have mastered it, he should have a fairly good grasp of it at this point. I know his passes have been pretty inaccurate, but I don't think I would attribute that to his knowledge of the playbook necessarily. I would wager it has more to do with nerves and the pressure he may be under with the pass rush. If anything a break between now and TC for him to reflect on it might help him come out stronger next year.
Agreed. I think the pressure of having to overcome a spotty running game, no time to throw and guys dropping balls caught up to both guys. If you look at the season, both QBs played their best in their first couple of starts, then got progressively worse as they went along. Then when Chad came back after six weeks off he looked better again. I think any QB, with everything else going wrong, tries to do too much and starts making bad decisions and forcing throws. Anyone who remembers when Boomer was here, how did he do with the 1995 Jets? He was at the tail end of his career, but had all the experience and talent and leadership in the world, was a league MVP once. How'd that go?
Apples and oranges. In 2002 the Jets offense was stacked. We had a top 3 in the league OL, a healthy and younger Coles, Chrebet and Moss, Curtis Martin, Jerald Sowell, and Lamont Jordan. Chad and Vinny had all day to throw and a solid running attack. It was actually a situation where you could compare the QB's and determine who was better.
True, except Martin was injured and though he played he was ineffective at the time they changed QBs. He got better as they made their run with Chad late in the season. They had the other backs but Curtis got most of the carries. Regarding this season, I didn't expect we'd make a run to the second round of the playoffs like in 2002, we aren't as good, like you said, and Clemens came in later in the season than Chad did in 2002. But if QB was the only reason our offense was bad, or even a major reason, we'd at least have started scoring more TDs. Even if we didn't win games with offense, we'd have scored more points. The fact that we won a couple 13-10 OT games is more a statement of our defense improving than anything. So I'd say this season is not an indication that Chad is done or that Clemens won't be good. Neither one.
The playbook is hurting him because it's not tied to the realities of what an NFL team has to accomplish on offense to win games. It's tied to the peculiar vulnerabilities of an aging QB who cannot make many of the throws and a young WR who they like to line up in the wishbone as a gimmick. I've seen the Jets throw up the seams just a small handful of times in the two seasons that Schottenheimer and Mangini have been responsible for the playbook. Not surprisingly, when they have thrown up the seams they have been sometimes spectacularly successful, particularly with Cotchery and Baker in those situations. Chad couldn't get the ball up the seams and so I understand why they use those plays so sparingly with him. I still don't fully understand why they haven't called more of them with Clemens. It's possible that the reads require more time, since you have to look the safeties out of the middle before you put the ball in there, and that the Jet's offensive line was just too porous to allow the Jets to run that scheme this season. In that case they'd better fix things quick because Clemens is going to flunk out running the check down to a safe pass every time offense. Even Chad can't make any points out of it these days and he's the master of taking only what the defense hands you on a silver platter.
Sadly most of these guys dont get that. Fix the Oline, and Clemens CLEARLY can be the QB we saw late in the Baltimore game. That wasnt a couple of lucky throws, one was a 44 yard dart to Cotchery, who got tackled immediately (Ball between two closing defenders, quickly...) MCCraphands dropped a perfect 31 yard dart that should have been six...Plus most throws were for some yardage... To see the difference you really only need to look at the play by play of the last two drives in the Baltimore vs. the last two drives in the first Buffalo game...
To me it seems the offense (line) is what is limiting them more than anything. The development issue may have some merit as well. Perhaps that is why they are not trying to thrown downfield more often, but I am less likely to accept that they have the whole playbook set up for Chad only. We've seen long pass plays with Chad, albeit not as often as some would like, but they do exist. It seems it would be more a matter of adjusting the game plan rather than the playbook itself.
Most of us do get that for Clemens to be able to develop and for the Jets to know how good/bad he is that the OL needs to be fixed. I think saying that he's CLEARLY going to be the future is premature, especially off a couple of throws in one game.
I agree. The long pass is generally a low percentage play, most teams don't use it too often. As much as people here despise the short pass, it is a staple in most teams' offense. Especially when you can't run, like us this year, you have to do something to get into makable 2nd and 3rd downs to keep a drive going. If you rely on long passes and you can't run, you end up with a lot of 2nd and 10, 3rd and 10. Then the D knows you have to pass and with our line you get sacked. So you need the short passing game. People here don't get that, they think it's a video game and you can just throw bombs all day until you score.
I agree with you for the most part, but Chad really is done. Any window he had to win a superbowl with the Jets closed several years ago.
