on your first paragraph, go back and see how long he had all those wonderful players and who actually contributed. some didnt even play for herm, get your head out of the sand! if he had them the whole time he might not have only made it as far as afc divisional. under herm rhodes wasnt ready to play, get real. baker still aint done nothing. jordan didnt get the chance because they didnt want to flaunt his ass before a contract year. herm wanted to keep lamont, but management tied up tons of money on old ass martin. blaylock was picked up to be a receiving ,3rd down back by heimerdinger. barlow by mangini. you need to go read a while your facts are out of time. good luck with it though.
its an obvious waste to even try to talk reality, when so many have their heads so far up a head coaches ass they cant hear anything you say. lets give mangini the time it took to build rome.......i bet he wont win us a superbowl before he is fired, or moves on to become a coordinator or ball boy. any takers mangini lovers?
You seem to be blaming alot of Bradways/Herms blunders on Mangini. The only players you mentioned that Herm brought in who are potential pro bowl material are Cotchery and Rhodes. Herm didn't even play Cotchery, he has shined under Mangini's watch. Starting from the top on the other players you mentioned: Nugent was a ridiculous reach as a #2 pick and is right now just average. Robertson is a huge bust as the #4 overall pick. He certainly can't be considered a great player at this juncture. Moss/Coles - First Coles was brought in by Parcells, so in your example we got back the guy Bill brought in. Coles should never have been let go to start with and that is Bradways blunder. Moss was never that good with us, and certainly can be considered a big disappointment as a #1 pick. Baker is a good, but certainly not a great player. Moore is not a good guard, and is a prime candidate for upgrade. He is a backup at best on most teams. Hobson is average at best and most likely will not be here next year. B Thomas - Are you kidding me??? He is the biggest bust next to Dwayne (and at least Dwayne can play a little). His only good year was his contract year, and has been invisible this year. Now as far as Mangin: first - the players he drafted are only in their second year so I don't know how you can already label someone a bust. That being said, It's pretty obvious that Revis, Harris, and Mangold are pro bowl material, and quite possibly Leon as well. That's already more quality players than Herm brought in after only 2 years. As far as the money issues go, you can only blame Tanny - he's the one making the salary cap decisions. You certainly can't blame that on Manny. As far as Herm leaving - it was obvious he wanted to go back to his beloved Chiefs. Woody was not happy with Herm anyways, so why would he pay him more. A good decision by Woody, certainly not a cheap one.
first of all nfl players are not developed like little leaguers. mangini didnt develope any of these guys, geez. in the pro's, in any sport ,players are put in position to make plays by coaches which determines their value to the team, but does not entitle their worth in some other situation or team. clemens is not an nfl qb right now, no doubt about it. then this its only his sixth game crap. its the end of his second year, for heavens sake. i was hoping clemens could be eli, cause right now he is not. could we have drafted any other people than revis or harris? turner no! any amount of unknown options were atleast possibilities until the door was closed with mangini's two first round picks. how can any one contemplate any thing better than what mangini did, when we dont know all the options he had out there. we didnt get better except in two areas that were not the most important to our team at that current time. spin that! its not about speed, it is about priority, which mangini lacks. he also cant coach and couldnt in his first year. example: right after the half of the bears game....what did mangini do in a close game? he onside kicked. this year he once again made a stupid decision during the cleveland game, when he decided to do the opposite. it is about speed when you think its o.k. to build this team from cellar dweller to super champs in 10 years. thats not how any team has been rebuilt. look at the past dynasties...49ers of 80's, cowboys of 90's, and patriots of today. 2-4 years and bang....super champs.
Jason Fabini played for Herm 2001-2004 Kareem McKenzie player for Herm 2001-2004 Kevin Mawae 2001-2005 Randy Thomas 2001-2002 Santana Moss 2001-2004 (then we traded him for Coles so it's not like Herm lost anything) John Abraham 2001-2005 Victor Green 2001 Aaron Glenn 2001 James Farrior 2001-2002 Wayne Chrebet 2001-2005 Richie Anderson 2001-2002 Vinnie Testeverde 2001-2003 Curtis Martin 2001-2005 As you see all of the players were present during Herm's 1st year(which was what my point was about) and a majority of them were here for most of Herm's time here. Come on now - Rhodes wasn't ready to play the same way that Cotch wasn't? The fact is - he was ready to play and started all 16 games under Herm. It's just that Herm had no clue how to gameplan to his players strengths. Baker has performed much better under Mangini as both a blocker and a receiver. This is really funny. We had the money to sign Lamont - it's just that he knew that he wouldn't be utilized with Herm at the helm. Need I remind you of the fight that Herm had with his coordinator on the sidelines because he refused to get Lamont in the game. And if you believe that BS about flaunting him for a contract year then I really don't have any chance at all of influencing your opinion - you just want to believe what you want to believe. Who knows how much longer Martin could have played if Herm didn't run the guy into the ground? The fact is Tanny had to scramble to replace Martin and he did the best he could given the circumstances. I was not in favor of giving up a 1st/3rd for Turner. Either way the fact reamins the same - Mangini did what Herm did with with ALOT less talent. P.S. Please refrain from criticizing my facts which I obviously researched. I put in the time - you just are going off of memory - which clearly isn't as good as you thought it was.
here you are defending your coach, but kicking the players on our current roster, that this current coach gives extentions to. thank i needed mangini ignorance to shine through. why does mangini keep them on board if they are of no use? i agree ,some of them do suck, so why are they still here? mangini is not the answer. i have not once blamed herms blunders on mangini. where is that? coles left on his own. nugent was a high pick for a kicker in the second round. robertson does suck at the nose, (which is mangini's fault.... he is out of position), moore thomas and hobson are career backups at times on the field. baker is still under utilized. so how do all these things add up to being herm's fault? because he initially got them? or because mangini puts them in wrong positions or signs them to extentions?
hows this for memory....herm switched from a 3-4 (parcells-groh) to the tampa cover two in his first season. mangini still hasnt a clue. every guy you mentioned had numerous injury problems, abraham, moss, vinny (he was washed up),glenn, fabini, chrebet, with the exceptions of mawae and mckenzie. thomas was gone after year one. green came back later on, anderson retired. farrior didnt fit the scheme. the only research you did was go find what seasons they played in under herm. rhodes did not start every game in his first season, and he was not rodney harrison. he still isnt. when did mangini start game planning to his players strengths? he still doesnt. baker is under utilized by mangini, how does this make him a great coach? we did not have the money to resign lamont, dont you remember past seasons? we were in cap hell until mangini came around....isnt this the reason he is our savior? herm said he wanted lamont to stay, but free agency took him. he was martins replacement for gods sake. just like turner in san diego. i refrained, but get real!
Let me make my argument more simple and see if you still disagree: Herm had alot more talent than Mangini did their 1st year coaching the NYJ.
Kerry Rhodes was drafted in the 4th round (123rd overall) of the 2005 NFL Draft by the New York Jets. That same year, he beat out Oliver Celestin for the starting job at strong safety and started in 16 consecutive games in 2005. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerry_Rhodes
I may have misunderstood your original post as I think you did mine. You stated that Herm added these players and they don't need to be replaced, and then proceeded to question the guys that Mangini has drafted. I inferred that you were stating that Herm added quality players during his regime whereas Mangini has not. I may or may not have inferred correctly, but that's what I based my response on. It was my opinion that Herm only added 2 high quality players (1 of which he never used) and I gave my reasons why. I then stated that I thought Mangini had drafted more high quality players (3 or possibily 4) in just 2 seasons vs Herms 4. Also, let me state that Mangini is not "my coach" as you put it; I have been on the fence and have stated as such. I have said that he deserves another season based on the job he did in 2006. I also said that based on who was available at the time (retreads like Mike Tice) I didn't have a problem with the hire. I have had some frustration with some of Mangini's decisions both on and off the field, but I still think he earned himself another season based on 2006. I also believe that he will learn from his mistakes and has the potential to be a great coach. The main things I have been debating in this thread are: A) That there's no difference between 3-13 and 4-12 and Mangini's future success will not be affected by this weekends outcome B) All of the problems encountered this season are not on Mangini's shoulders and C) Mangini should not be fired after this season and earned at least another year. I will say this - after reading many of the anti Mangini threads, I'm starting to fall in the pro Mangini camp. You seem to have a blind hatred of Mangini. At least Brdwy and Cakes have stated that he did a good job in 2006. Why can't you acknowledge that - especially considering the absolute mess he inherited?
I did not want Mike Tice here. I was going to be okay with Eric Mangini or Mike Sherman. Mangini coached well in 2006. In my opinion, he's been out-and-out awful this season. I go back to 1984 and the only Jets coach who had a worse performance was Rich Kotite in 1995 and 1996. I thought Edwards did a better job in 2005 than Mangini's done this year and I also found Joe Walton's 1989 campaign to have been a better one. Hey, the Jets hired Mangini. One year- very good, the next year- historically inept. He's probably going to get another year. We'll see what happens. (I was not home today. The list won't be posted till next week. If the Jets finish 4-12 I may not bother posting it, anyway. What I would likely do instead is expand it to include all marks between .200 and .250. I spent a couple hours trying to work HTML code and it was too problematic. Then I got busy with other stuff on Friday and today I wasn't home.)
The fact that the you can even compare the talent Mangini/Tannenbaum have brought in through 2 drafts compared to the talent that Herm/Bradway brought in over 5 drafts, speaks volumes to how poorly Herm/Bradway did in the draft.
No offense it is your fault. Debates grounded in fact will not work. You should have just stuck with Bradway and Cakes. At least they argue with facts and figures and basic football knowledge. It may not be what you want to hear but at least it is intelligent.
Mike Tennenbaum is the GM anyway. The title of this thread should 'This season is on Tannenbaum's head' because it's about personnel moves. You can make a whole other thread about Mangini's various coaching decision blunders. However, if you want to blame someone for how this roster was assembled, blame Tannenbaum. I know Mangini has input, but it's the GM's call.
Yeah, I was pointing out how our choices were pretty horrible, and IMO we got the best guy available and he ended up having an incredible 06, and a pretty disappointing 07. Our best choices were Jim Haslett or Mike Tice. I like the move of going with a young guy who can prove something over old guys who have proved nothing. I think that once we were reduced to only 2 above average O-Linemen who were just in the sophomore years, most Jets fans here knew that was big trouble to begin with. And on the D-Line, add to that we are starting Ellis still, Roberston's undersized, KC doesn't have any expolsiveness, and there's our run game problems right there.
Hey Brdwy and Cakes - does this now mean Mangini has a chance at future success with the Jets - LOL!!!! Just kidding!
What it means is that we're not DOA with him moving forward as head coach. I'd still prefer Cowher coming in and taking over the operation. Whether that involved Mangini staying as coach or not.
