no logic? you answered the statement already! i seriously thought herm had problems until i got a taste of mangini's ignorance. herm was bad mangini is worse. whats the logic in keeping mangini? because he is cap friendly to the ownership, where as herm and parcells were not? other than that what proof do any of you mangini lovers have?
You ask the same questions over and over, as a distorted response to what Br4adw4ay and Cakes, among others, are posting.... Nobody here expected us to be Super Bowl contenders this season, so GET THAT IDEA OUT OF YOUR HEAD! The people here are not NFL coaches, so we are not expected to know what decisions to make with a football team. Mangini is paid to do so and showed extreme incompetence in doing so, both in terms of personnel and in terms of in-game coaching. So #1) Stop asking what we would have done, because that doesn't matter. What matters is that what Mangini did turned us into a bottom 3 team in the NFL and #2) When people offer criticisms, stop using the phrase "hindsight's a hell of a weapon" to try and shoot down their arguments. The fact of the matter is that there is no other way for one to judge coaching decisions. If they don't pan out (without the impact of something completely unexpected, like injuries) the coaching move was not a good one. Period. And Herm was not a good coach, but Mangini hasn't shown anything that says he is any better. tbruner is right on the money when he says that management was extremely foolish in hiring another 1st year HC with no significant experience (even as a coordinator, as Mangini's 1 year as the Pats D coordinator was their worst defensive year since their 1st SB run in '01) after the end of the Edwards regime.
Exactly. Most of the Mangini haters here have not taken this into account or haven't offered a viable alternative. It's easy to criticise a move, but I respect those criticisms that back it up with a good solutions.
Exactly, I think Mike Tice would have been another Kotite for sure. A lot of people could argue that Mangini hasn't been much better, but I do think he does have a plan and I think his plan will bear fruit for NY. It is just that in our town the natives are always restless - you get 5 pico-seconds to move after the light turns green or you get the horn <- that pretty much says it all. Mangini has held this team together all year. Even though we have sucked, the team is still together; that says a lot. I have seen us in similar situations when it was quite clear we were in mail it in mode. We all must recall that when Mangini was brought in the talent pool wasn't really that great that particular year. I think they basically made the right decision to bring an upstarting young coach. I think if the NY fans were remotely capable to give the same patience given Cowher in Pittsburgh, Mangini will pan out just fine. Cowher did produce a lot of playoff appearences, but there were some lean years. We already had one playoff appearence under Mangini; now we are in a lean year, but I think all of our problems are about as obvious as it gets. There should be no doubt about what needs to be done when this season is over. Next year should be a much better year. Or, I certainly would like to think so. I will know before the for pre-season snap because our acquisitions through FA (the bigger story) and who we have selected in the draft will tell fairly close how much we should have improved for '08.
How about matching Herm's best record here with MUCH less talent? How about developing young talent(the same talent that Herm refused to play while he was here).
How about matching (and, with a loss tomorrow, being one game worse than) Herm's WORST record, without any significant injuries (we were already halfway there by the time Vilma and Coles started to miss significant time)... Both coaches have done a poor job with the Jets, period
As a Jet fan I have seen Lou Holtz,Joe Walton,Bruce Coslet,and Rich Kotite lead us to the AFC basement.These guys werte losers and coached that way as well. While not happy with our 2007 season I have seen Mangini make adjustments and hold this team together. I'm willing to give him another season to get us to at least a .500 finish while rebuilding both our offense and defense. Mangini's first year going 10-6 was too good to be true. This year was what I had expected last year. Firing Sutton and brining in Ryan willbe a good start in rebuilding the defense. Also Tannenbaum must be active in free agency to hold the line while our draft picks develop in to solid players.This is a rebuilding team that is at the crossroads. We can only hope that Mangini can turn things around for the Jets in 22008
We'll see this offseason how well he gets it. If he can't see that our team's troubles are in direct proportion to how God-awful our lines are, then I'll grab the first pitchfork. However, if he at least partially solves these line problems, I think he will find himself in a much better position to succeed.
What do you mean 'This season is on Mangini's head'? I have news for you, pal. It's on MY head - like a ton of bricks. And my head hurts like hell. Well, it does.
much less talent? how about mangini using herm's team, minus the player's who were expendable according to the new plan? herm's last season in n.y. was supposed to become a superbowl run that was up ended by injuries. that team had a couple good years left in it, if they had a better coach than herm, like say parcells or someone. sure it had a lot of older players, so what. the only young talent herm didnt use was cotchery, get over that excuse. mangini has blew off/misjudged much more talent than did herm. mangini is looking alot like a step down from herm. this weekends game should be quite a coaching debacle. one doofus is undoubtably going to win.
Mangini is gonna be a big time coach. It's obvious. For someone to start a thread with this ridiculous topic, is embarrassing and ignorant.
What? Herm never had his own team. He rode the team Parcells made all the way to consistently underachieving seasons. Notice he left as soon as most of Parcells' last draft entered their 30's...most like Ellis and Pennington already showed signs of decilne. What talent did Herm find for this team?
1. From the way they sound, they expected SOMETHING if it wasn't SB. What did the expect...the BS 6 win mark someone made up earlier in this thread? 2. Extreme incompetence? Dude, our O-line is fucked up. It cost us a season we had no shot in anyway. Sucks for us. The team and Mangini moves on. 3. The questions I ask have significance. Who should we have signed? I mean the anti-Mangini crowd complains and complains and complains about how we should have done this and that and this last year...but I see no definite plan from any of them that would have made us whatever it is you guys wanted (since it's not Super Bowl contenders). 4. I've offered far more than "hindsight is a hell of a weapon" as a rebuttal. Not my problem the anti-Mangini crowd ignores it and continues to the lame generalizations and ridiculously broad comparisons. They'd rather say than coming into a team with no O-line, secondary, D-line, QB questions, no running game is something to be ignored cause he's had two whole years to fix it. 5. So...who was that guy coaching a MAYBE 5 win team to 10 wins last year? I'm just wondering cause that guy seemed like a good coach. He then went and had one of the best drafts (arguably best 1st day) of any team in the league. But those things don't count, because 2007...which you guys didn't even have high expectations for...is lost. I don't get it, but the anti-Mangini crowd will keep repeating the same stuff anyway. 6. Was tburner right last year? 7. It's logic like your last paragraph that amazes me. The man just came off a 10 win season that took us to the playoffs when no one thought we'd win 6 games. Now he's a n00b who never deserved to be hired? It's such a BS argument. For a bunch of long time NFL / Jets fans you'd think most people know what it looks like when a team rebuilds...guess not. Whats the point some of you are trying to make? If you didn't consider us Super Bowl contenders, and 2007 was lost anyway...whats the whining about? Because of 3 wins? A couple breaks the other way in a few games and we're easily a 6-7 win team...who cares...we'd still suck. Mangini has us on the right track and all we've done since he became our coach is improve our talent level. That matters much more for the LONG TERM (remember that?) than being less crappy in 2007.
the first part is true, herm never built anything...he inherited bill's team. herm did add cotchery,rhodes,nugent,robertson,moss(which gave us coles back,indirectly),baker,b.thomas,hobson,moore,etc.....so all these guys need replaced? what has mangtanny given us? revis, harris, mangold, leon and d-bust! clemens doesnt look like anything other than eli, t.j, is only a couple years away from needing replaced, and a bunch of career backups looking to make some free agency noise. herm left because management got tight on money, after the ty law season. our money people tied up big money on sentimentals like martin and chrebet when they needed to be moving in a team friendly manner, toward getting young and talented. mangini is only woody's henchman in squeezing the piggy bank. how can you honestly believe mangini is the answer?
Please don't even try to say that Mangini had anything close to the talent that Herm had. A still serviceable Fabini, Kareem McKenzie, Kevin Mawae, Randy Thomas, Santana Moss, John Abraham, Victor Green, Aaron Glenn, James Farrior, Wayne Chrebet, Richie Anderson, Vinnie Testeverde and umm some guy named Curtis Martin. This is Parcells team that Herm brought to 10-6 in 2001. Mangini went 10-6 with the shell of a team that Herm/Bradway left for him. Two rookies on the oline to compliment an aging Pete Kendall, Brandon Moore and Anthony Clement because the previous regime failed to draft/develop any oline talent. Kevan Barlow/Derrick Blaylock because Herm ran Martin into the ground. A Chad Pennington who was nothing close to his pre-injury self. The difference in talent from when Herm took over vs. Mangini's first year is quite significant. If you can't see this then you must have your head in the sand. About developing young talent - Kerry Rhodes was nowhere near the playmaker under Herm than he is under Mangini. Mangini consistently put him in a position to be disruptive either via sack or interception. Chris Baker? How about Bryan Thomas? And how about Herm's refusal to include Lamont Jordan in the gameplan? Herm mismanaged plenty of young talent besides just Cotch.
Herm GOT us those guys but: Rhodes Nugent Cotchery Robertson Thomas Hobson Baker All have played BETTER under Mangini / finally got their chance to play under Mangini. Doesn't that matter a little more? No? Now the other parts: 1. Wow, nice to see 6 games behind a crappy O-line and without his best WR at times is enough to say he's an Eli clone. Thats the kind of hardcore analysis I've seen from the anti-Mangini crowd. 2. What RB should we have gotten last offseason then? Micheal Turner for a first and a third? 3. To answer your last question, because he's looked competent during the offseason and has way more of a plan/idea of what to do than the group of guys whining that he's not doing anything fast enough.
2. our line is fucked up and was before we traded multiple picks for revis and harris ,who were not part of the bigger needs of this team. even though they are both good players why add them to a team coming off a playoff season, with other BIGGER NEEDS? you always want answers well what about this...... mangtanny gets on the damn phone on draft day and trades those four picks to a team/teams willing, which yields us a killer lineman and a monster nose for "mangini's gotta run the 3-4 defense"? no our leadership thought our run game(defense) neede a rookie linebacker, and a corner to compete. they solved our run game (offense) problems by using a second on t.j., and then pushing kendall out the door for showing our rookies the ropes for a year and calling the front office on a verbally promised million, they replace him with clarke and bender(what a joke)! i guess they thought we were going to compete, you probably did too. i bitched about both our lines since signing up to this board in august. i have been negative from the get go of mangini and his doings. i disliked herm and his stupidity, and had no other alternative but to give mangini a chance. i watched him his first season and found out real quick he is a very inexperienced head coach. (not a guy to let rebuild your franchise) would you let a rookie brain surgeon operate on your mother? 7. do you actually think this is how teams rebuild? your idea is like mangini's i assume. we are not progressing, we are degressing, and i am not considering either of mangini's season records. look at the team management and the things being done. you cannot build through draft alone, especially not hitting the most important areas first. you dont have to draft players in the draft, hell you can trade picks for bodies if you wish, if you can find takers, and most teams/people dont blow off first and second round picks so easily. our office and coaches thought they had it after last season, thats a fact. to this you call arguably the best first day in last years draft. yea, if you were a team on the verge who had all the other MORE important needs met. you call the mangini way rebuilding.......... then say no one else can see logic....better check yourself.
1st we don't need to spend another 1st rd pick on a lineman. Obviously Clarke didn't workout(I've yet to see an organization that is right 100% of the time). The jury is still out on Bender. Regardless - we can't build Rome in a day. Although Harris and Revis weren't diehard needs(this is debatable as well) they are two tough positions to fill and we got them in a REALLY weak draft. Shutdown corners and fantastic 3-4 ILB are much tougher to find than guards or tackles. As for requesting that our FO getting a monster 3-4 NT - wow. Like we missed one? Where in the draft? Where in FA? I think when DWare was asking for what you would have done - he was looking for something a little more specific. Why don't you try and be a little more vague and just say "I would have put a team together that could have won the SB".
