Like I wrote earlier tonight, I never thought there was a big difference there, either. Both of those records are awful. But then you look at historical data and there does seem to be a difference. Every regular season game is important to some extent. Mangini's job actually could ride on this game. We just don't know one way or the other.
This is not the Special Olympics or Little League baseball where it's about trying hard and having fun. This is pro football. It's about wins and losses. Mangini has not delivered results here in 2007. There is a long list of returning head coaches who resided over these sorts of disgusting seasons. Only one of those 89 coaches ever went on to led the same franchise to as many as one playoff win. That guy was John McKay. In their second year of existence, McKay led the Tampa Bay Buccaneers to a 2-12 record. Unlike Chris Palmer of the expansion Browns, McKay saw a third year. He eventually coached up the Buccaneers to the point where they were able to win a playoff game. 1 coach out of 89. If the Jets lose on Sunday, Mangini joins that list as the 90th member. Could he make it 2 out of 90? (If they win, he'd be on the list of returning coaches who coached teams to .250 or worse winning percentages. On that list, I think there are a tad more than 1 who eventually won playoff games with the same franchise. If the Jets finish 4-12, what the heck, I'll put that list together in the new year.)
Well, there you go. The only coach ever to go 3-13 or worse in his second season on the job and win a playoff game was John McKay. The 2-12 nightmare he coached in his second season? It was better than the 0-14 that the talent-deprived Bucs put together in the first season under his command, which was the first season of their existence. That probably makes McKay one of the few coaches in NFL history to win 2 games his second season while improving his team's standing at the same time.
Man-weenie is still the problem Man-weenie started the pre-season by forcing Pete Kendall to the rookie dorm. Of course, Kendall was insulted. And THIS was THE story of the JEts' preseason. NOT their playoff appearance. NOT their draft choices... No, it was all about their insults towards Pete Kendall. How do you think the rest of the tem felt about this? Do you think Pete KEndall ight have had a few friends on the team? Do you think that maybe a few of them koticed how badly the new Jets regime treatds veteran players? This was quite a way to start a season where Kendall was the team spokesman Then, Man-weenie forced Kendall to play with the third-stringers throughout training camp... Think about this... Kendall gets traded to the Redskins--who look like they'll make the playoffs. Meanwhile the Jets offensive line has become a mess. So can someone explain to me how Man-weenie is a "good coach?" And that his handling of the Pete Kendall situation paid off, somehow?
Easy, Kendall sucked. Just cause Adriane Clarke sucks more doesn't mean Kendall deserved much more. Put it this way, most of your argument against Mangini is based purely on hindsight and players past reputation. People seem to think Kendall was this really good player in '06, he was decent at best. Two things I noticed...the anti-Mangini group relies on a coaches second year of a rebuilding team's record and the overrated 35 year old guards situation. Not that he handled Kendall's situation perfectly, but during the pre-season neither Bender nor Clarke looked like they would hurt this team significantly. If that gets twisted into him being a bad coach, oh well. I still think he's done more for this franchise than Herm ever has. I'll ask again: Do people think Herm is a better coach than Mangini because he had more success in his second season? I mean, this is purely results oriented right? We're 3-12, therefore the coach must be retarded, no? Love the change though...10-6 he's fine....oh 3-12 he must suck theres no hope...everybody jump ship. Perfectly logical mentality.
The thing is Mangini will be back next year regardless of what happens next week. Woody likes Manny that much and will give him at least next year to right the ship. Yes, one game makes a difference for teams that are on the bubble for a playoff spot, or a winless team looking to avoid going 0-16. However, this makes little difference in teams that have more than 1 win and less than 7. We've both made good arguments on the 3-13 vs 4-12 and I'm not going to argue further - I'm sticking by my opionion as you will yours. I will say this though - IMO Manny's future success as HC of the Jets is not going to be altered by this weekends outcome vs the Chiefs. It would be like saying that the Jets need to treat the game like the SB for the future success of the team. That I just can't see.
The thing I've been saying that you are not grasping is that before I even looked at the historical record, I thought Mangini was doing a terrible job as head coach both on and off the field in 2007. Then, I looked at the historical record and I found out that if Mangini and the Jets finish 3-13 he will try to do what only one other coach ever did- rebound from a sub-.200 record as a returning coach and win a playoff game down the road. I am not moronic enough to look at numbers and say, "X happened in 1954, therefore Mangini will suck as a coach in 2008."
Can you do one thing for me? Can you read what I write? You time and time again distort what I write. NOTE: I cannot post the darn list at this time. HTML code is giving me a hard time with roughly half the lines. I may have to present the list in a different form. The task will be more laborious. EDIT: Scott Linehan and Eric Mangini are the coaches in danger of joining the list after Sunday. They would be entering Lindy Infante, Marty Mornhinweg, Chris Palmer, Mike Riley, Darryl Rogers, June Jones, Rich Kotite, Dick MacPherson territory. (Those are just a sampling of some of the "great" coaches appearing on the list.)
even though the hottie in your avatar distracts me, i disagree with you.(who is she?) mangini proved he is an idiot in the way he handled the whole thing. it also showed what management thinks of players, past, present, and in the future. mangini and our current money people will struggle to buy the free agents we are desperately needing. it will be safe to say we wont be loading up for the future in this departement. if anybody thinks this regime is such great talent evaluators, you better think again. who would you take.....adrien clarke, or kendall and the million dollar loss?
I grasp very well your opinion of Manny, you have stated this very clearly. I'm interested in what your opionion was of him at the end of 2006. What you and some others are not grasping is that the major difference between this season and last is that we were winning the close games last year and are losing them this year. They still play hard and are prepared every week. Mangini had a major rebuilding job on his hands last year, and most people around here were expecting at least 3 years before seeing a playoff team. He had a playoff year and a miserable year, yet some of you are already calling for his head. Many of us also knew going in that he and Tanny were rookies and they were going to make mistakes. Agree with it or not Woody decided to take a chance and sacrifice a season or two for long term success. We weren't delusioned by the 2006 season and expected some set backs. That being said, Manny/Tanny did make some bad mistakes this year. I also think that the assistants have had an impact this season and should be replaced. How Manny/Tanny react to the adversity this season will be all telling. I think Winston's post is one of the best I have seen on this board. 100% accurate, and as he stated setbacks were to be expected. Definitely POTY material.
You can do a search. You will find posts from this time last year when I had nothing but praise for Mangini. In late August of 2007, I expected the Jets to take a step back off of the playoff appearance. My prediction was 7-9. 3-13, 3-12-1, or 4-12 is unacceptable. Those are hideous records that are indicative of serious problems in the coaching department. Eric Mangini is the Joe Charboneau of NFL head coaches until he proves otherwise. I'm quite sure Indians fans loved Super Joe in 1980. It was a different story a year later. In my book, Mangini has no excuses for 3 or 4 wins. The team was not devastated by injuries. At least Linehan can say his team was ravaged by injuries this year.
I'm too lazy to do a search (especially at this hour) so I'll take your word for it! I just can't understand how you could so drastically change your opinion in one season. I too had some real frustration at him and the team at times, but once I cooled down I realized there was a plan in place and we were in year 2 of a Major rebuilding project. Unfortunately these things take time. You said you expected 7-9 which is a losing season. IMO Chad cost us at least 3-4 games with his pick 6's and the fact he can't throw more than 10 yards downfield. That would give you the 7 win total. You also said we didn't have any major injuries. I would counter that and say the fact that Chad's arm was shot at the beginning of season constitues a major and devastating injury. Even if you disagree with all that, I produced a list of other variables that should be considered when evaluating a bad season in an earlier post. Many of these factors are not the fault of the HC. I would feel differently if we were getting blown out every game. But when you lose almost half your games by 7 points or less, it's indicative of the breaks not going your way. We were getting those breaks in 2006 and not getting them in 2007. That's why I don't see a significant difference between 7-9 and 4-12 or 3-13 - it's a losing season regardless. Also couple in that once we were effectively eliminated from the playoffs, Manny started 2nd and 3rd stringers into the lineup to see what they can do. You could argue that this contributed to the close losses. I'm willing to give him another year. We'll see after that.
I was also extraordinarily optimistic after last season and posting that way. The thing that spun me 180 degrees was the number of mistakes that were made in the offseason and the way in which they interlocked. I'm thinking 9-7 as of the opening of free agency. 1. No bidding on the free agents on the offensive line despite massive cap space available. The Jets were not even rumored to be going after any of these guys despite the fact that the offensive line was clearly a weakness. Ok, 9-7 is holding up, sort of, maybe 8-8. 2. No trade movement at all early on despite the fact that the Jets clearly had a number of valuable properties not suited for the defensive scheme being run. Who trades in the NFL anyway? 8-8. 3. The draft turns into just two likely NFL players and neither of them on the line of scrimmage. This has to be one of the few times in NFL history that a team with the problems the Jets had on both lines did not draft anybody there until the 6th round. Whoops, I'm an unhappy camper. 7 to 9 wins, probably more like 7ish. Competence in the NFL is determined on the lines. 4. The beginning of the Kendall saga with reports in May that Kendall is very unhappy due to his contention that the Jets reneged on an oral agreement with him. Throw that guy out of town! Imagine him messing up the offseason morale like that. We can find somebody to replace him if we have to. 7 to 9 wins. 5. All of the useless chaff the Jets signed in the two months after the draft to flesh out their roster when it became clear that they still had major depth issues post draft and free agency. Andre Wadsworth really? Some wrestler who has never played football before? Adrien Clarke? Well I guess he's big... 7 or 8 wins? 6. The Kendall thing just keeps getting louder and louder and by the beginning of camp it's almost like the Jets WANT this showdown so they can prove something. Kendall get put in the rookie dorms, which is a ridiculous move that represents lack of maturity on the Jets part more than anything else. Hmmm, this is not good. Why would the Jets allow themselves to get drawn into this going into camp? Why didn't they trade him in July? 7 or 8 wins? Please? 7. The outside football stuff about Mangini keeps getting brought up with the Sopranos episode and the commercials and I start to wonder how much time he's been putting in on the football side. He's lost a lot of weight too and I'm not sure I really recognize the same guy who was on the sidelines last season. The reason NFL coaches get fat is they sit in offices 18 hours a day in the offseason and watch film and strategize while eating junk food. Mangini's been going to the gym and eating healthy home cooking instead... Oh boy. Well, I guess it's just a personality thing. He's going to be a celebrity. Damn I hope he's thinking about the Pats week 1 and not how to get on Oprah. 7 wins? Maybe 6 if we get some injuries? 8. It's obvious in camp that the Jet's lines are still a problem as Chad spends a series or two running for his life each pre-season game. Sh*t. If the line is that bad things could get comical back there against the Pats. Let me look at the schedule real quick, hmmm 10 games against teams with big physical defensive front 7's. Crap, we're going to have to get lucky not to go 5-11. 9. Nonetheless Kendall is shown the door. Adrien Clarke, eh? I hope he's better than he's looked so far. 5 or 6 wins, maybe 7 at the outside. 10. The Jets just flatout blow at the start of the season with neither side of the ball working well, although special teams is giving them good enough field position to score a bit. This again?
Lets call bullshit. http://forums.theganggreen.com//showthread.php?t=19336 There was a thread about the Jets talking to Columbo on this site. http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2007/04/bengals-rfa-andrews-visits-jets.asp I believe we brought Andrews in twice. I've said this before too. So...for the millionth time I ask again...who would you have drafted? What guys in this draft look/looked better than Revis and Harris today AND draft day? No one. Last years draft sucked, which is why quality > quantity. Again, no concept of draft strategy shown here. Who didn't think Kendall was replaceable? The guy was a decent at best guard getting up there in age and whining about a million bucks. Teams bring in "useless chaff" to come to training camp every year. You act like they banked on Wadsworth coming in and being a pass rushing monster for us. When we sign him everyone and their mother knew it was just a chance for him to put on pads again. Good thing you were right in there to see how Kendall was acting towards the team. I'm trying to find them, but someone from JI posted a bunch of teams pics in which Kendall was off standing to the far side away from the rest of the team. Maybe it was both sides being dicks? ROTFL....now this is bullshit if I ever saw it. You're actually suggesting Mangini doesn't work hard? Wow, you're reaching. The man did a friggin scene sitting at a resteraunt in the Soprano's, how many days do you think they took to shoot that scene? The man was on the screen for like 5 seconds tops. And Kendall would have ended all of our O-line troubles? What is with this crap that Kendall was some super kickass G? Clarke has no future with the Jets. I would hope that became fairly obvious. Huh? We get our ass kicked by New England, barely lose to the Ravens, beat Miami, barely lose to the Bills, barely lose to the Giants, and basically put up a legit fight against every single opponent up to beating the Steelers after the bye. Did you even watch this season or is this all based on our W-L record?
Walt Michaels was gone because of a drinking problem and getting rid of Walt Michaels destroyed the Jets for years. Prior to Parcells arrival, Michaels was the single best Jets HC since Weeb. Michaels was fired so we wouldn't lose the next great NFL HC Joe Walton. How did that turn out? There is only one reason to fire Mangini and Tannenbaum, to bring in someone better. It really doesn't matter what past teams have done with crappy records the only thing that matters is can you improve the quality of the football people running the organization. The only reason to fire Mangini and Tannenbaum is to bring better people in or if your organization is in such disaray because of blatant incompetence. I haven't seen anything by Tannenbaum or Mangini that says incompetent or gross neglect. The OL sucks but they did draft 2 first rounders year 1 and drafted late round OL in year 2 along with bringing in several FA's. They didn't know coming in if they had a QB with Pennington so they gave up a late pick for Ramsey and used a 2 on Clemens playing a little defense with Ramsey and looking to the future with Clemens both solid moves. The biggest risk Mangini and Tannenbaum made to date was bringing in Shot as the OC but apparently he is very well thought of around the league. The other thing that sticks out in my mind is teams that have bad records and fire their HC also rarely achieve by making a move. Almost every NFL coach will be fired at some point. The league is full of HC who have taken their teams no where with better players than the Jets have. The reality is if we fire Mangini we probably bring in another retread and this team will look like Arizona or Detroit for the next 10 years. We may look like that with Mangini but the fact that the guy already has a 10 win season with a weak team as one of the youngest HC in the league already shows that he can compete in the NFL. A little adversity early may end up being a great learning experience for him? It may not but it still comes down to do you really believe that Jay Cross and Woody Johnson will find someone better if they fire Mangini? I say that is a complete crap shoot with the odds being extremely doubtfull and you are much more likely to get Rich Kotite or Joe Walton than getting Bill Walsh or Joe Gibbs. I have seen a lot of lossing over the years and I'm just as tired of it as anyone on this board. I think these guys have to get 4 or 5 years to build or fail. Starting over again without a lock solid proven winner would be another in a long line of disasters for the Jets. I don't see that lock solid guy that's worth making the move to.
True, and that's why I said draft Guards every year...... but, we now look at THIS front office.. And I think this season, watching people blow through the G spots was an eye opener for the organization..... In the 1st year they kept Kendal and spent 2 1st rounders. 2nd year they thought they kept status quo then Kendall turned Rat NOW...... NOW, they have been smacked in the face all year with holes at Guard.... NOW, is the time to watch them grab OL players... Yeah, I would have liked it last year but, again, they got Revis and Harris instead.... HUGE parts of this team right now and for the future... NOW, they get OL or I act like YOU. Patience is a must... I find it ridiculous to overreact and start laying things on people's heads after year 2 of a REBUILD. But, as with everything - Sports, politics, etc etc... We all need our overreactionaries. The Rush Limbaughs... The NY Times.... The people at the edge.......
I'ts relative to each team.... And since the Jets aren't at 0 Wins, the Jets aren't firing Mangini and the Jets aren't like those teams looking for a playoff spot, at this time 3 wins or 4 wins means NOTHING! Mangini is doing the right thing - playing around with the OL and seeing what some players can do.... If he wanted nothing more than to Win last week he wouldn't have messed with the OL.... I like coaches who look at the big picture over grabbing 1 more win in a losing season... THIS is what I hated about Herm he never gave guys a chance and would run a guy like Curtis Martin on 1 leg in the game this week if he had to over resting him and seeing what the backup has.
Again, most of this comes down to the OL.... I think they learned their lesson. And I have to say, when the draft comes you hope your team gets the BPA period and they did that with Revis and Harris... In the big picture Revis and Harris wipe out not drafting OL to me... And I was posting all over the place that I wanted at least 2 OL in the 1st 3 rounds......... Revis and Harris. HUUUUGE parts of this team that can't be overlooked... NOW add a guard and a RT..... NOW lets Roll!!!!!
Cakes - How dare you enter the home of the green blinders with such logic and statistical data to back your claims? I’m surprised no one has attacked you yet and indicated that you “know nothing about football”. Further – anyone who has been around the league for any bit if time is FULLY AWARE of this which completely inhibits our ability to recruit skilled players or coaches in the off season; bottom line is no one wants to come play / work for a lame duck coach who more than likely is serving out his last 12 months of employment in Hempstead. I said around week 4 that we would go 3 – 13 and that would be it for Mandoofis…even if they don’t fire him at the end of the season; we would only going through the motions next year until they find their next incompetent, under experienced, under qualified 2 cent head coach. I can’t understand why none of the ManBlows supporters can just accept the fact that practically NO ONE recovers from a three or less win season. Also – love this quote: ...finally - someone who gets it.
It's not about wins and losses, it's about building a team that can compete for a SB and make a serious run for a few years. Building an elite team that can compete when you are dealing with a sport that has a 53 man roster doensn't happen in one or two seasons. Norv Turner is widely looked on as a dope. If SD wins one home playoff game he imediately becomes a better HC in SD than Marty who probably has more double digit win seasons than any coach in the league right now.
