Just a thought... What about Chad coming back next season...and Moss coming over from NE???? Chad and Moss reunite.... Moss, Coles, Cotchery triple threat.. . Chad finds the fountain of youth and re-energizes his arm..(he barely played this year) .... something to think about....although a far fetch fantasy
I'm not saying the pre-salary cap years are irrelevant, but you can't deny that it is easier to go from 4-12 to 12-4 in the salary cap era than it was before. You seem to believe that the failures 3-13 and 2-14 of coaches from 20+ years ago is more relevent, that's your perogative. However, to completely ignore the the success of many coaches in the past nine seasons (Fisher, Gruden, Schottenheimer, Crennell, Vermeil and Mariucci) from 4-12, would seem pretty foolish. We are talking about six different head coaches here, so this seems like more than one or two coaches getting lucky. It doesn't mean that Mangini will necessarily led them to an 11 win season in 08 or 09, but recent history would seem to suggest that it isn't an outrageous belief, especially when you consider his success in 2006. Considering the way the NFL has changed since the 80s (let alone 60s or 70s), I'd put more emphasis on this recent success than the failures of Bud Carson and others from a completely different generation.
There are coaches from every era who had sub-.200 records and were out of a job the following year. Dennis Erickson, June Jones, Mike Ditka, Marty Mornhinweg, Lindy Infante, George Seifert, etc- salary cap era. Again, I wrote why I am looking at the sub-.200 records. The reason I am not looking at 4-12 marks is not because it suits my argument. It is because some poster specifically wrote that Eric Mangini will come back in 2008 even if he goes 3-13. Therefore, a couple months ago, I decided to use that very specific record of 3-13. It's a winning percentage of .188 and then I rounded up to .200.
Bud Carson, by the way, will not even be part of my list for he never had a sub-.200 record. You might want to wait till I post the list (which, looks like it will be on Thursday night at this point) and then shoot holes in it.
Man-Weenie I would like other posters to remember the original subject of this post: Eric Mangini's total and hopeless incompetence as an NFL coach. Think about it: He never played the game, and he's never won anything really, so it must be tough for his palyers to accept the grueling training regime he imposes every year. Yes, he and Tannenbaum draft character payers, but they have also ridded the Jets of some truly character players: Kevin Mawae and Pete Kendall. These guys were the heart and soul of the Jets offensive line. What did Tangini do with them? Well, of course they dumped them ASAP. And what are we left with? One of the worst offensive lines in the NFL. This wasn't enough for Tangini though. They had to embarrass Pete Kendall during training camp by housing him with the rookies and playing him on the third string squad... How did that work out in the end, guys?
This is the thing that bothered me the most about the Kendall fiasco in the offseason: the Jets were downright punitive and dismissive even though the obviously had no other reasonable option available. I have no problem with the Jets deciding they wanted to get rid of Kendall and upgrade the position with a younger guy who might be an improvement. I have no problem with them deciding Kendall was going to be a distraction and getting rid of him on that basis assuming they had a viable replacement in mind. I have a huge problem with them treating Kendall like they did and then getting rid of him with no real option available to replace his production. If I'd thought about it in training camp I'd have realized that this kind of amateurish humiliation virtually always backfires in a big way on the people who perpetrate it. Smart coaches get rid of problems quietly and efficiently. Why Mangini and Tannenbaum thought it was ok to do what they did to the Jets union rep (voted on by the Jets players) is beyond me. I think 3-13 may well have happened as a direct result of the belittlement and exile of a needed player who was also a popular member of the clubhouse. That does not speak well of the current management team.
You know what that type of crap reminds me of? Marty Mornhinweg. Mornhinweg made several immature amateurish moves that caused the Lions to not have much respect for him. If I recall correctly, the most ridiculous event came one day in practice when, without warning, Mornhinweg turned his back on the team, walked to his motorcycle, started it up, and went for a spin. I believe it was many hours later when he returned. Mornhinweg went 3-13 in his second season and was fired. There is a good chance he will never be an NFL head coach again after what he did in Detroit. His second season in Detroit is very similar to Mangini's 2nd year with the Jets. The difference is, of course, Mornhinweg also sucked big time in his debut season.
Okay, there will be 90 head coaches on my list (technically 89- one guy came up twice). Only five of them were able to rebound from a sub-.200 (non-first year) season to have success in future seasons as an NFL or AFL head coach. Of those five head coaches, only two of them won as many as ONE playoff game. Of the other three, one was later 0-1 in the postseason, one was later 0-2, and the other never made it to the playoffs (but did have three winning seasons). Instead of posting the list in this thread, I will create a thread on Thursday night. EDIT: For the poster concerned about the salary cap era, 17 of the 90 occurred in the salary cap era. That number can be increased from 17 if you want to consider coaches such as Sam Wyche who had the Year of Shit (as I am now calling them) in 1991, a year which predated the salary cap era. He's one of the rare 90 who was able to get another head coaching gig (there were 11 others). Of course, he did nothing good in Tampa Bay during the salary cap era.
Huh? Teams have quit on coaches all the time. Again, I think the problem here is impatience more than it is the incompetence of Mangini. Theres plenty of reasons to expect better things from him, you guys are just making conclusions based soley on a rebuilding teams W-L record. Doesn't usually work like that...teams suddenly break out all the time nowadays. I see no significant reason to quit on the guy in season two. Would you say Herm is a better coach than Mangini cause his record over the first two years with us were better?
You have to be getting worn down by now - no? I see you tirelessly defending a very rational point to the death. Sometimes you just have to let go and let people see for themselves. I always try to keep it in perspective that 'fan' is short for 'fanatic'. Logic and reason don't always appeal to a 'fan'atic.
As a long time investor, what I have learned is past performance is not an indication of future returns in fact if you look hard at the mutual fund industry, it kind of mirrors what you have been talking about, investors move from out of favor funds to in favor funds all the time with the result being they have sold low and bought high and left tons of money on the table over time. I prefer to look at what is happening. Mangini took over a directionless team with a damaged QB and an obliterated OL and DL with mediocre talent at best at LB and a weak secondary, bad WR corp and no running back, not pretty. With a disciplined approach and getting his players in top shape and creating real competition for the first time in years the team responded well and won a ton of close games with a mistake proof O and D, no injuries and guys making every single catch and play that could possibly be made. This year a few injuries a few drops and plays not made and those close wins have been turned to close losses. What I also see is a very inexperienced staff and GM around that young HC. That has to be changed and with an early exit this year we should be in position to get some more experience and talent around an organized and disciplined HC. The HC can't micro manage the team he can only bring the direction and that direction is organized and well thought out. I believe bringing in potential HC material is not a sign that Mangini is in trouble but a sign that they want to improve the team. If building a top staff and bringing in top evaluators of football talent is now going to be thought of as a negative for Mangini, this franchise is more screwed than any of us could imagine. This team needs stability and it needs top professionals around a young HC who I believe would get another job in a second if we let him go now. This is not country club, clueless Herm who couldn't organize any aspect of the team around him. This is a young smart tireless worker who has brought a disciplined approach who lives and breathes football and has the players doing the same. Improve the team with top position coaches, improve the talent, improve the talent evaluators, the staff, and the players and this team is going to move forward and compete. The NFL is full of retreads that at best are mediocre who last forever in this league because there is so few good young talented coaches who bring a big picture mentality to a franchise. Mangini has made mistakes but from the first day he brought the right direction to this club and has a big picture view. To get rid of him now would be among the dumbest things this team could do unless we are talking about an absolute proven guy like Cowher or Jimmy Johnson. Rich Kotite didn't work full days he played golf and at best was a 5 hour a day HC during the season. There is no comparison to Mangini, Mangini is smart, he learned under Parcells and BB, and he knows how to organize the team. He took in a very young OC and got the bottom pickings in terms of staff because he was the last hire in a year of tremendous turnover. They made some mistakes with Kendall, they should have unloaded him before TC and not embarrassed him or the team but getting rid of players who aren't going to be part of the end game doesn't matter in the long run it's who is going to be here 2 and 3 years from now that matters. The Jets suck, but they have sucked for years with a lot more talent than this team has. Jet fans think making the playoffs is a successful season, making the playoffs in this league is about mediocrity and luck. Winning a SB is about a plan, an organization building something special. There isn't that much between us and the Giants or TN or TB, there is a ton of difference between us and Dallas, NE and the Colts. We aren't getting to the top with a retread, we are getting there with an iron willed HC who can stand the heat and see his vision through and ownership that is willing to give him everything he needs to see that vision through. I have seen every HC on the Jets since Weeb. Mangini is the best we have had since {Parcells and Michaels before he turned into a drunk. To dump this guy after this season will set us back for another several years. This post has been brought to you by the Mangini ball washer society a Mangini apologist Corporation.
Win I have very grave doubts that EM is a good evulator of talent based on what occurred this season. In fact even you as a top notch supporter of his would have to give a F or even a F- or worse. To me one of the HC most important tasks is being able to evulate talent thru tape & TC & insure we get the strongest possible players to play for us. For sure that was not done this year which was confirmed even by a CBS analyst Randy Cross when he said we have 1 good player on the OL & all the rest are semi decent. Since RC played OL you would have to think that his words have a certain truism since he played the position. RC also said the same thing about our DL. While he was not a DL I would think from all the tape he watches & all the years he played that that observation is also more/less correct.
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Post of the year. It's funny how irrational fans can be and how they look at "Making the playoffs"... One of the reasons why my Team analysis is always polar opposite of someone like NYjunc...... I like the direction of this team and This year could be a blessing in disguise.. No more pretending the OL will be fine - another lesson learned.. Same thing with the run D... But, also all these changes take time.... They couldn't get all the guys for the OL and DL in 1 or 2 years... THIS offseason is the one where they need to make sure the holes are filled and luckily they have the money and they have a good FA class And a decent draft with OL talent!!!!!! A LOT of progress can be made in this offseason.... This season is on Mangini's head????? Sure. Bring it on, to me it was a necessary evil and the opposite of what Herm did by filling holes with bandaids while staying more competitive. The Wild Card for this staff now though is finding a QB... And that alone can make or break you.
I wouldn't.... DRAFTING is key to winning in this league and I'd say Revis and Harris are both Homeruns... You draft like that a few more times and you're team will win in spite of itself........ FA's didn't pan out but, those weren' crippling contracts... They didn't go all out last year because the FA market was weak and they weren't a contender yet anyway - So, they correctly save their cap space and waited for THIS market coming up.... Big opportunity This offseason to add maybe 2-3 OL players and some pass rush help..... To me, year 3 is the year you really analyze a Staff... THIS IS IT..... I'm pretty pumped... I see some good defense and a team that didn't quit.... Which is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEE If this team Quit this year I'd be with all you whiners saying the same thing just like I was dead set Dark Sider against Herm and Bradway in year 3... Year 3 is when it all happens.... BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You mean he has done a good job with the OL & DL? Yes Revis & Harris are good but what about the other 20 that make up a starting team? I'm sure you do not feel the same about say Clarke or Moore now do you? Also I caution you without a OL we will be as bad next year as we are this. Just some food for thought
That's just the point: they rebounded from 4-12, not 3-13. There's a huge difference there. And again, I don't know what it is but it's very real. It kind of like having two small animals in front of you with a King Cobra. The mongoose kills the cobra most of the time and the meerkat dies to it. Same genera, size and basic appearance but one is alive at the end and one is dead. When the King Cobra = getting fired 4-12 is the mongoose and 3-13 is the meerkat. Why? Who knows.
