See his one throw as an example of why he doesn't throw the ball.. You can also reference back to the preseason if you need more examples. Smith is no QB, unfortunately at this point neither is Clemens or Pennington.
It's funny, right now, we don't have a consistently decent option at QB.... But with Smith in there, we seem to have a decent running game.... It's kind of embarassing that it's come to that, but, if Clemens is unable to go the last 2 games, I'd almost prefer to have Smith get a decent amount of snaps, so that the games will at least be interesting... As a 3-11 team, the least they can give us is something fun to watch the last two games...
Here is our decent running game with Smith at QB 76 yards, 49 yards on one play when NE was not ready for it and 21 yards on a Smith scramble when he dropped back to pass. So the rest is 6 yards and that is without the defense game planning for it.
I don't think people want him to throw the ball when he's lined up behind center, he's obviously not a good QB in terms of reading coverage and being accurate, and if you put him behind center, the team can prepare. Why not have him throw it on a trick play or something where the defense won't be ready.
Thats a really, REALLY skewed way to look at this. I mean he took away the effectiveness of Robertson and Vilma? Robertson has played the same way he played in the 4-3, explosive at times but disappears or pushed around at others. Vilma has disappeared completely, but like I said before we've gotten similar or better performance from Ellis, Thomas, Robertson, Hobson, and Rhodes. Does losing Vilma offset the fact that we rejuvenated Ellis? Or that Thomas and Hobson had their best seasons by far last year? And I'm sorry...FB? FB is that big a deal to you? I'm having trouble following your logic with this. Do you see how old and/or oft -injured that old team is? We've improved our secondary under Mangini. We gave up Abraham, but we got the best young C in the game for him. We have a LT who should be with us for a long, long time. Hobson, Rhodes, Thomas, and arguably Robertson and Ellis have all improved their game under Mangini. You're really minimizing the accomplishments of this guy and it sounds like you just never liked him in the first place. I mean come on...you said it yourself that the only way his first year would have counted is if he won the Super Bowl or magically lengthened his career to a Cowher/Fisher-esque one. To actually think this team hasn't improved at all because you're not happy with the W-L record is just being blind and only looking for one kind of progression. Like I said before, thats cool. But as far as adding talent to this team, we've been going in the right direction the past 2 years. If you expect more when you have to overhaul a roster as decimated as that one was, thats all on you. I still don't see why that means all our HC has accomplished has to be knocked down cause its not happening fast enough for you.
Not that it's not happening fats enough, that it's not happening at all.. Mangini doesn't have a track record to fall back on... His body of work here is all he has, and that's it... I'm not sure how you're interpreting my post? I recognized the positions he upgraded, and the players who improved under him.... I also said I'd disregard FB since we don't use one.... Yet those are the things about my post you bash? You completely ignored the most important point, which was the weakening of the LG, RT, and DE positions, which are all key to our terrible record right now... If you think Robertson and Ellis have improved their play under Mangini, you're out of your mind... Bill Cowher once described Robertson as 'the best defensive linemen we've faced all season.' Now he's a flash here, and a flash there, when he's faced with a single blocker, but not much when he is forced to take on a doubleteam in the 3-4.... Thomas? He had one pretty good season, and now he's right back to where he was before, numbers wise, even though he's playing 3x as many snaps as he was before Mangini came to town.... I've watched the games, as I'm sure you have, and if you think this is an 'improving' team, you haven't been paying attention.. Again, it all starts up front, and we have done nothing to strengthen those areas... We replaced two aging veterans with two first round picks, pretty much maintaining the status quo at LT and C, and haven't even begun to address any of the other 3 positions on the line... Grady Jackson became available as a NT this season, and we didn't even look at him. We haven't attempted to trade for a NT, or sign a FA NT. We haven't drafted a DT in Mangini's tenure either.... Ellis is fine at one DE, but we signed a career backup/passrush specialist from Dallas to hold down the other side of the line, and he's been little more than a speed bump for opposing offensive lines... We've actually been playing a LINEBACKER, David Bowens, at his spot now, and been getting better strength at the point of attack.... Again, the point of my post was to show that: A) He has not improved the personnel on this team like you said he has B) The areas he has improved, other than LT, are all skill positions C) The areas he has failed to improve are largely in the trenches B & C are tell tale signs of poor management... See, the Texans before last year's draft.... It doesn't matter who your skill position players are, if you don;t give them protection (on both offense and defense)
You consider center to be a skill position? Or are you just not satisfied with Mangold as a long-term option and expected the Jets to somehow improve on Mawae some other way? And let's not forget that the skill positions were severely deficient in a number of ways. You had an oft-injured QB, a running back who was unexpectedly out (well, not TOO unexpected, considering his age, but it's still a featured position), and a secondary that was in shambles. The first draft nabbed two O-linemen. If you figure you can hold your own in the trenches the following year, which I have to assume they thought would happen... maybe not be great, but adequate... then you try to improve the other areas. It doesn't help this year that Coles has been hurt, Pennington has been hurt/ineffective, not to mention Miller being out, and Kendall putting the Jets in a tough spot where he couldn't be readily replaced. I think those factors have a lot more to do with the Jets record than anything the coaching staff has done/not done. Take those away, and you're looking at a team that goes 8-8 with a much tougher schedule, and (I'd hope) no one would be complaining.
The only thing really weakened was LG. RT was crappy in '05 too. Abraham would have played DE/OLB for us, but not only is the guy getting up there in age...but he's always injured...just got a big contract...and we got the best young C in the NFL for him. LG is just something that needs to be fixed. No I'm not. Ellis had like 2.5 sacks in his last season in the 4-3. The guy was just ugly in 2005. He's been much better in the 3-4 than his last season in the 4-3. And what about Robertson is missing? Dwayne had one really good season his whole career, and that was when Fergy was lined up with him. I'd say he looks just as good as he has at any point in his career. You're acting like he was some dominant 4-3 DT. The guy was hit and miss then and now. He's also dropped back into coverage a ton. And the D-line play this season has been decent at best. Not to mention we're not facing the O-lines of the teams we faced last year. You're not offering any context at all to any of this stuff. Thomas isn't a super-duper franchise player, but he can be a solid one if the team around him allows him to do what he does. So...the fact that we're stopping the run better this year means nothing? Thats improvement. Plus, like I said...you're looking for improvements in W-L. I don't think thats how rebuilding works. You're bound to take huge lumps when you play a much tougher schedule against bigger and better O-lines. I still see improvements in talent, improvements in players, and potential in other players that make me say we have a future. We didn't have a future at the end of '05. Not while we were in cap hell with an aging, oft-injured roster. Like I said, you have yet to appreciate just how terrible this team was at the beginning of Mangini's tenure. And again....you ignore that we chased Thomas in '06, Colombo and Andrews in '07, and have drafted 3 linemen in the first two drafts of Mangini's career... You want results but you have no patience to get them because the guy doesn't have a track record. You want to go the safe route and take a Cowher (who JUST retired and who knows what he wants) or another established guy, I say our young HC hasn't done anything stupid enough to even consider dumping him. Grady Jackson has never, even played in a 3-4. How do you know we didn't look at him? Playing NT in the 3-4 is MUCH different from playing NT in the 4-3. Jackson won't have a guy lined up right next to him, a guy in his mid-30's would have to eat up multiple blockers on his own island pretty much...something he's never done before. 3-4 NT technique is COMPLETELY different from 4-3 NT technique. What? Coleman has been solid at worst. Definitely can be upgraded, but he's been a huge upgrade over the trash we had playing RE for us last year. I don't remember seeing Bowens at DE at all. I'll check that. Again, the point of my post was to show that: LT, RB, CB, S, C, LB Those are positions off the top of my head that have improved or played similarly well under him. This doesn't even go into individuals who've played better or similarly under Mangini. 3-4 DL players Mangini should have signed or drafted...can I have a list? I can think of Ngata...at the time did you think Ngata was worth the #4 overall pick? Yea, I've bashed him for ignoring Watson, Cofield Jr., Oshiwono, and Mebane in the past couple drafts...but our past 2 drafts have been the best two drafts since the Parcells era. You're saying you want him to fix things and that he didn't fix anything...but you're not offering what he could have done and when you do you're going purely on....I don't even know. Theres no plan or anything there...it really just seems like you think he's not doing it fast enough. Like I said, thats on you, not our coaching staff. What over our dominating Jones / Kendall / Mawae / Moore / Fabini O-line from '05? Or our kickass Abraham / Robertson / LAGREE / Ellis line from '05? You're acting like he walked into a decently talented team. We had a regime that didn't care for depth at the trenches, and it's bit us in the ass. Beyond Jones and Moore what young O-line players did we have? Beyond Robertson, what promising YOUNG D-line player did we have?
A couple points.... 1) We didn't improve the center position. We got younger, but production wise, we didn't get any better. By getting rid of Mawae and drafting Mangold, we did a good job of not letting there be a falloff after Mawae, but we improved nothing... 2) Unspectacular skill players can thrive behind good offensive/defensive lines. Good skill players rarely thrive behind bad offensive/defensive lines... 3) Coles did not miss any significant time until we were 1-8... 4) Chad's ineffectiveness/injury can be chalked up to the poor line play 5) Miller being out has not hurt us much at all, although it stinks that he missed a whole season where he could have been developing into a better CB 6) The Kendall situation was mishandled, as it never should have gotten to that point. Bottom line (as has been said in other threads) you do not let a starter leave (especially a veteran on a young OL) without an adequate replacement lined up. We have a 6th round rookie from an option offense, and Adrien Clarke...
Are you serious? Mawae is 36 years old dude and the last time he was on this roster he had a torn triceps. You want success NOW. This is a rebuilding team and has been the past couple years. You seem to be missing that...completely. Notice the influx and emphasis on youth and the jettison of aging, oft-injured vets? Those are usually signs of rebuilding.
Did you even READ what you bolded? I said we didn't improve, though we did a good job of maintaining the status quo at C... Is Mangold better than Mawae was? Absolutely not... We did a very good job of preventing a fall-off production wise at the C position, but we didn't get BETTER
But it was by far the BEST option, no? Unless there was another option that was better, giving Mangini shit for not "improving" the team is nothing more than a technicality built to fit a premise you already want to believe. ETA: From a long-term, team-building point of view, I think you could say we most certainly DID get better.
You're comparing Mangold in his early years to Mawae in his prime. Mawae in '05 and beyond has been meh at best. I think we got better short term AND long term.
Mawae also had tremendous potential to be a locker room cancer, much as Kendall was unfolding to be. By going to Mangold they were able to trade to a talent that was not going to have much drop off to someone who could buy into the system and be a future leader. I like the move. Mawae could have come back for us no problem for 2-4 years and sure we could have used the pick somewhere else, but you never know. Maybe he ends up having issues staying healthy. With as many other issues that were circulating I thought this was a good move too.
Thats hard for some people to see for an unknown reason. The Abe trade got us a younger and very skilled offensive lineman. That is the type of trade that can keep a competitive team going or help excelerate a rebuilding process. Abe did not want to be here. He was often injured and due to make a ton of money. For that we get Mangold. Who stepped in to All pro mawae's shoes and filled them well. That is improving you future as an organization. The team will be better off in 2010 at center as well as being fit there today. It was a great move. The problem is that we had no depth behind Abe. The Kimo Von Missoften thing did not work out, but at least they tried a vet that had played the 3-4. It is not the fault of this regime that we have no depth, but it is thier job to change that. They must continue to draft well early and find good players later on. While game planning seems to be a very hit and miss thing with the coaching staff, drafting has gone well for the most part.
