JetsLookingforDWare, I'm not going to go point for point with you because, quite frankly, It's been a long day for me, along with every other Jet fan, but I will reply to your post... On the issue of Mangini failing to address the OL.... Fabini could have been kept in town as a G. He's been playing RG at a pretty high level for the Redskins this season, and perhaps could have done the same for us, although I agree his days as a decent T are way behind him... Mawae is not the weak link on the Titans OL, and is still one of the better, grittier players in the league... A lot of Titans fans will attest that their improved running game the last few years has a lot to do with Mawae... Had we kept him aboard, we could have used the pick acquired for Abraham on something else.... That being said, that is not necessarily a move I disagreed with... Steinbach, along with those you mentioned was available in FA. We could have opened up the wallet and shown Colombo or L. Davis a deal they couldn't refuse. That, along with keeping Kendall on board, and we're looking at a MUCH better OL... And an overall much better team... D'Brickashaw would be the 'good' Brick we've seen so often this season with a solid, veteran next to him.... With solid blocking up front, Jones could be averaging 4.2+ YPC, like he was in Chicago last year, and we could be looking at a whole different team.... Add to that what better protection could do for the development of a kid like Clemens, and you get the picture... The reason why I say that the negatives far outweigh the positives is that a bad OL makes everything else worse.... And, again, Mangini & Co, have really made a lot of conscious decisions that have led to the current state of our OL.... Kenyon Coleman and Bryan Thomas were both terrible signings, as was Kimo vonOelhoffen the year before.... Kenyon was a spot-player in Dallas, and simply not strong enough at the point of attack to be a good 3-4 starting DE.... Thomas' "breakout season" was one in which he had 8.5 sacks... For the contract he got, that should be a down year... Passrushers worthy of that kind of contract consistently collect around 10 sacks in a season... With 7-8 sacks being a down year.... That we thought we could survive as a 3-4 defense with him as our edge-rusher was laughable..... I am one of those who thinks we'd be better off playing a 4-3 defense, even though letting Ferguson go was a huge mistake... Robertson is a perfect 3T defensive tackle, and is terribly inconsistent and overmatched in the 3-4.... In the 4-3 he was developing into a very, very good young defensive tackle.... Ellis, while unspectacular without Abraham, was a very solid 4-3 DE.... Thomas, as mediocre as he's been, was drafted to be a 4-3 DE, so to think he's much better off in this system is foolish... I cannot think of a single player who was on board in our front 7 when Mangini took over who was better suited for a 3-4 than a 4-3.... Even now, after two years of Mangini acquiring players for his system, we only have two players (Harris, Coleman) who are clearly 3-4 players.... The deal with a CS is very different than with a QB, or any other player for that matter.... The way I see it, year one with a new CS is insignificant.... That is the year where they should be establishing a foundation to build off of... But once they've had two entire offseasons to build their program, any regression from the team's former state (which we are seeing right now, despite 2005's injury epidemic) is a sign of failure among the CS... This is a league with a lot of parity (despite the stupid Pats) and two offseasons worth of player acquisitions and drafting should be long enough for a team to show some sort of improvement under the CS.... Regression, which, again, is what we're seeing here, is not a sign of the rebuilding process, but rather a sign of poor coaching/management
We had Moore, who has worked his ass off for us and is a pretty decent G, and Kendall at G already. Iunno about that...I've heard more than a few Titans fans say he's the weak link. And many credit Roos' insertion into the lineup as the real key to their pretty good OL. Hm...we had Kendall at the time, Colombo took a below market deal from the Cowboys to stick around, Davis was paid massive amounts of money... Not to mention Steinbach and Davis got paid a TOOOOOOOON of money. Of course. It's not like it's too late to get him a guard, it's only year 2. Of course, I'm not denying that. But it's not like theres not logical explanations for why our O-line is as bad as it is. Mangini f*cked up, but it's not like theres no hope, and it's certainly no reason to fire him. Of course, which is why he probably was so torn over putting him into the fire like that. Except thats not true. Andrews was brought in twice. There was alot of Colombo to Jets talk until he took the Cowboys deal. Dockery, Steinbach, and Davis were simply paid too much for a team like us. So we drafted one of the better developmental prospects in the draft. You can keep saying they did nothing, or didn't try, but it doesn't make it true. Please, I know more than a couple people here were calling Coleman a sleeper signing (myself included). BT had a pretty good season last year, and with a good DL and some help across from him he might get better. I see him alot in coverage this year too. What? All he's played in the pros is 3-4 and he notched more sacks than anyone else on the Cowboys D-line last year. PLUS, Parcells endorsed him, AND his contract isn't terrible. You're acting like his contract is huge. Only 9 million is guaranteed, and most guys aren't going to do much with a crappy D-line and a ton of being dropped into coverage alot. BT will be fine in the future, even if hes pissing me off right now. And I doubt Mangini actually considers him THE edge rusher for this team, just the most suitable one on this roster. Remember, BT was considered a DE/OLB prospect when he came out, and his size/speed/strength fits the mold perfectly. Ferguson wasn't let go by Mangini dude.... And who would play DT beside Robertson? Pouha was hurt last year remember? And I highly doubt he could take 40+ snaps a game. BT sucked as a DE in the 4-3. Ellis' play declined tremendously in '05 in the 4-3. So basically our D-line in the 4-3 would be BT / ??? / DRob / Ellis...terrifying... Not only that, but many people considered the 3-4 Thomas' perfect defense. He was drafted as a 6'4 255 (undersized) DE with 4.5 speed and superior strength...thats the prototypical 3-4 DE/OLB. And yet....only one guy saw his performance fall off... And you're forgetting that Ellis was drafted as a 3-4 end... And yet...no one's play has fallen off...we're just not that good. Wow...so year 1 doesn't count (unless they win SB or have a long history)...and two offseasons is enough? Do you know just how bad we were? I'm not sure if you're taking just how bad this team was into account. At all. You don't build a team in two years after losing so many huge parts and not having ANY depth from the regime before you. Really? Then why do most people say 3? Everyone and their mother could have called this team being bad. You're not giving any legit reasons with any actual proof...you're just saying things. You're using pure hindsight and considering absolutely 0 circumstances.
I'm not calling for his head yet, but I think this post is indicative of many Jets' fans attitudes. Hey! We ALMOST won!!!. We almost scared BB. THis is not a personal attack on you Sec 227, please don't get me wrong. But I hear a lot of Jet fans that are more than willing to settle for mediocrity. Hey we got to the playoffs last year! CP leads the league in Qb rating even though he can't beat above average defenses! Herm Edwards got us to the playoffs (and a quick exit) most of his tenure here! Sorry folks, Jet fans deserve better. I'm sick and tired of being a second rate team. Fuck almost. I want to be a legit contender. I'm not convinced this FO is going to give us that.
Bringing guys in for an interview does not equate to FO competency.... Signing veteran players to fill holes on a young team certainly helps.... We had plenty of cap room, and could have easily shelled out a nice sized contract for a veteran RT for our OL, while giving Kendall is $1M, and keeping the rest of the line in tact.... Now obviously it's not 'too late' to make personnel moves to correct those mistakes the current regime has made.... But I don't have much, if any, confidence that our FO will do so, as they've shown no penchant for addressing the OL outside the draft in the past.... The last thing we need is two more rookies on the line at this point.... History will tell you that HCs rarely, if ever, lead a tea to a record of 3-13 or worse in a season other than their 1st, and bounce back to have success with that same squad.... We're on the verge of such a season.... I'm tired of bringing in experimental coaches with no prior HC experience... I want someone to come in here with a track record, as Parcells did, and right this ship.... Remember the transition from 1996 to 1997 to 1998? That's how rebuilding is supposed to go (albeit an extremely efficient example, most fans would not mind that same process strewn out, with continuous improvement, over 5+ years).... That team didn't even start to fall apart, despite terrible post-Parcells management until the last couple seasons.... The only true difference I can think of is the QB situation, as we're in the midst of trying to find our QB of the future... Still, this kind of regression should never happen during a rebuilding process.... Regression is not a part of rebuilding And by the way, people say it should take 3 seasons for the rebuilding to yield results, as in playoff contention.... Not for the process to yield progress.... Any lack of progress after the first season, in my opinion, is the result of a failed rebuilding
Mangini did not drop passes or get stopped behind the line. The PLAYERS did not execute. And it's only some players. We fix some big holes in the off-season, we can compete next year. The should have fixed some last off-season, but they though their crap didn't stink, but they found out otherwise. I liked Pennington today once he got in the groove. I'll miss him next year. I hope he finds success on some NFC team next year. The Smith QB didn't bother me too much, but I don't think he should have played as much. I hope the fish beat the pats.
And they...would interview guys for the fun of interviewing guys? Veteran RT such as....? The confidence is more your issue than anything else. That can't really be fixed right now can it? And the past? Dude its been two offseasons in which they heavily pursued Thomas (from the Eagles), Colombo, Andrews, and who knows who else. What history? Examples would be nice. And even then, why is Mangini like every other coach in history? He's raised the talent level of the team, got us out of cap hell, and has yet to lose the confidence of his players or the front office. So basically, you (and others with similar beliefs) are simply venting your frustrations on a second year coach who has done everything to change the attitude of this franchise. So...fire the guy after two seasons because one of them was really bad? Note: It was really bad even after two good drafts and frugal signings of young guys (beyond Kimo) who are solid players at worst? Do you remember how frustrating '96, '97, and '98 were with missing out on Pace, W. Jones, and Manning for various reasons? But we stuck through and built up a pretty good team. But patience is dead here I'm guessing. The myth that you can rebuild a franchise in a year or two is just ridiculous. We're also trying to rebuild our OL and DL too. Yes well, sh*t happens. Still not a significant reason for anyone to be fired. You're acting like Mangini has showed complete incompetence, he hasn't. Progress comes in many forms. The young talent we've added just in the past 2 seasons is progress. But you're overlooking that because you want to see results. Thats cool, everyone wants results. But I have no idea how you're correlating lack of wins with lack of competence, especially with a second year coach who has done nothing but RAISE the talent level of this team and franchise. Again...the day Mangini loses the team or just doesn't seem to be getting it done, I'll admit its time to say bye bye. 2 years into a massive rebuild is not that time, wins or no wins. It's not even like we're getting our asses kicked this season.
Well said. It seems like there are several issues that aren't being considered when it comes to evaluating the coaching staff. 1. The slow start prompted a QB change. Regardless of who you think should be the long-term answer, Chad would likely have given this team a better chance to win more games. But the Jets wanted to see what they had in Clemens. They probably sacrificed 1-2 wins in 2007 for (hopefully) getting more out of Clemens in 2008. 2. There is a gaping hole at LG. Maybe that's the fault of the coaching staff... but it was also a pretty f'd up situation, overall. Not one you expect to have to deal with right before the season. 3. The Jets' schedule is exponentially more difficult this year than last year. 4. Most of the games have been a lot closer than their record suggests. Philly, the Giants (despite the final score), Baltimore, Buffalo, Washington, Cincy, etc... all games that could (and maybe should) have been won. Some of it is execution (McCareins dropping passes like it's his job), and some of it is crappy luck (McCaireins needing to replace an injured Coles in the first place). I don't know how much of it is which, but I do know that the Jets have played better than a 3-11 team. Honestly, the first Pats game and the Dallas game are the only times this season where the Jets just looked flat out overmatched. You can't just heap the blame on Mangini and say, "We're regressing!!" There are a number of factors (like the ones above) that have little to do with whether Mangini is a good coach or not. I'm not thrilled with all the moves that ARE attributable to Mangini this year, but I'm not close to being ready to write him off, either. We'll see what happens this offseason.
Well said. Theres no point in throwing the coach whose actually tried to progress this franchise under a bus because he's not doing it fast enough to please some fans.
Because Mccarins has a contract that would cost a big salery cap hit and is obviously not a tradable player..With Coles limping around witha high ankle sprain we need the extra receiver. It is what it is! ERIC MNGINI IS AN EXCELLENT COACH WHO WILL GET THIS FRANCHISE TO THE PROMISED LAND. It takes time to change over the roster and acquire and build through the draft..pat's payed a whole lot of cheddar for A. Thomas..I was not impressed with that dude for the money he's getting..#52 was the best LB on field for both teams..not even close and #24 arguably the best CB out there also..Mangini guys..yes ssssir
He has A QB who can't play anymore and a QB who doesn't know how to play yet. He has a crap OL. He has mediocre receivers. Face it, they are mediocre. They do not scare anybody. He has a couple of stiff LBs and stiff DLs. The secondary is not bad. He has drafted good talent. He has NO playmakers on the offensive side. He should have cleaned house after 10-6 but he chickened out. Give him this off season to upgrade the personnel. If they still stink on offense next year, then throw him out.
Agreed. What does a guy have to do to get demoted? How many times does a player have to single-handedly take his team out of the game at the worst possible moment before he gets benched? I'm not saying necessarily to cut McCareins and take the cap hit but WHY IS HE ON THE FIELD???
What the heck are you talking about man?!?!?! WHY THE HECK WAS CHAD IN THERE!?!?! We clearly had NO chance to win with Chad, why was he in there? I was at a bar with 30+ Jets fans all screaming to keep Brad Smith in there. Let the man throw a pass for once! Did you notice we moved the ball when he was in there!!
This guy had 5, 6 chances to make a play, one damm play, he did not make one. He is a lousy football player. CUT HIM TODAY
I'm TIRED of doing that for Jets coaches. Every year it's another excuse, and something else that will surely be better "if we just. . . . " Under Herm, one year it was old and slow linebackers. Then it was an inept defensive coordinator. Then it was an overly conservative offensive coordinator. Then a new kicker was the final piece. An experienced, shutdown cornerback, that HAD to be it. Then injuries were the source of my angst. It was ALWAYS something that told me I had to wait until NEXT year, and then everything would certainly be right, "if we just . . . " . . . . fix whatever was the problem du jour. Last year was satisfying because last year we had none of that. No expectations from that team, so we could just move forward and progress from a fairly successful season. Except that, now, we've drooped back into excuse-making. Don't tell me we haven't regressed. We most certainly have!
We have regressed in terms of productivity vs. talent this year, but we clearly proved that we are not a playoff caliber team. We probably should have 2 to 3 more more wins, but that's about it. I see this year's setback as a good thing, because it made all our weaknesses blatantly obvious. It is a no-brainer for this CS to recognize what has to be done going into next year. The only real mistake I see carrying over to next year because we are very stubborn, is the 3-4.
They did let him throw a pass and it was 3 yards behind an opened TE!!! He's got no business being back there!
Chad had no business being back there. I can throw 3 yard outs, I knew the game was over as soon as Chad stepped on the field. At least give us some chance to win......
