McNair wasn't capable of putting up 28 in that game. The weather was bad and he couldn't move at all. The guy looked like toast in that game. A young, healthy McNair might have put 28 up against that Colt D, but not the 34 year old shell that was in that game.
This is going nowhere, you're arguing facts and I'm arguing hypotheticals! For the record, I think we're agreed that Peyton played a good game v Baltimore.
There is no debating that Manning is a great Qb, there is also no debating that the Colts finally won a SB because there D played better than they have in past playoff failures. Point is, you need a great team to win a SB not just a great QB. It is ridiculous to say that Chad can't win a SB unless he has a great team around him when the same can be said for the best QBs who have ever played the game..
Most great teams, except for a handfull have only been great enough to win a SB because the QB was great. It is rare to have a great team without a great QB and Chad is not a Great QB, he is a decent QB. Many teams that have won SB without great QB have had QB with great skills who were capable of lifting teams because they had those skills. Chad doesn't have those skills at best he can play flawless and not loss the game for you.
Originally Posted by nyjunc Manning had a great 2nd half against NE that's it. In baltimore he didn't lead his team to a TD, against KC the Chiefs O was dreadful, in the SB in was the ground game that carried the O and w/o the D stepping up in the 2nd half against NE(thanks in large part to a INT TD manning gave up that put them in a huge hole) then manning doesn't have a chance to win that game in the 2nd half. I think you meant KICKER not QB. peyton was 15-30 in that game for just 170 yds w/ zero Tds and 2 INts- how exactly was he the difference? The difference bal turning it over 4 times and Vinatieri going 5 for 5 on FGs. The Colts ran the ball down the throats of Baltimore? To the tune of 100 rush yards total at about 4 ypc? That OK but it's not earth shattering. Also, Manning had a total of two passes over 20 yards so I really don't see a lot of "down the field throws". His WR's averaged about 10 yards per reception so I would say that Manning wasn't successful at getting the ball downfield. In my opinion Manning was average at best in the game against the Ravens. If Chad had had the same game against the Ravens a bunch of people on this site would be complaining with the typical that he couldn't perform against a good defense. Am I saying that Chad is as good or better than Manning? No, just that sometimes it seems that people make "excuses" when other QB's play at a less than stellar level and the Chad doesn't get the benefit of the doubt because of the arm-strength issue.
The Ravens allowed an average of 75 yards per game on the ground, they were by far the best defense in football last year playing at home in bad weather. Everything in that game favored Baltimore and the game turned into a classic field position game. Manning made a couple of throws like the 27 yarder to Clark in the first possession of the second half that not only set up the FG but it backed Ed Reed off the LOS and allowed the Colts to consistently break enough yardage on each possession to control the field. There were a handfull of field position changing plays in that game that were primarily do to the respect Manning got from the Baltimore D. He got it because he made a handfull of throws that were impossible by almost any other QB in the league. It's the same reason the Jets ran the ball so well against the Colts. Namath pushed their D off the LOS in the first half and the field position game carried the day. Arm strength the ability to release the ball down field when moving backwards or being hit or in general being uncomfortable is the key to winning agianst really good Defensive teams. Even the dunk passes to his running backs were made under pressure while being hit or moving backwards.
If Manning couldn't get the ball downfield the Ravens would have stacked the line and stopped the colts. The mere fact that Manning can stretch the field makes their running attact that much better. We have no such Luxury. The Ravens and better defenses will dare the Jets to throw and stack the line against Chad.
My point was that two pass completions of more than twenty yards is not successfully getting the ball down the field. Pennington had more long pass completions against the Patriots in the playoffs. The Colts gained 4.0 ypc against the Ravens, but if you take out one long run (25 yards) the average goes down to <2.5 yards. Seems like the Ravens were pretty successful at stopping the Colts running attack as well. Yes we know that Manning has a stronger arm the Pennington and we understand the byproducts of that fact. It is not lost on most people that are "Pro-Pennington". But the idea of stretching out a defense doesn't mean that stronger armed QB's should get the benefit of doubt while a guy like Pennington gets "thrown under the bus" when in fact he has comparable game performances.
Blah, blah, Dan Marino=No SB, blah blah, blah. We could go on and on. Equating solely SB wins with QB talent is a meaningless argument...blah, blah,blah.
GIve me the comparable game performance against that type of D in the playoffs? We were shut out twice last year against lesser defenses.
Well, I would say that Pennington had just as good a game against the Pats in last year's Playoffs as Manning had against the Ravens. Again I'm not saying that Chad is as good as Peyton. I am just saying that Pennington's 23/40, 300YDs, 1TD, 1INT vs. Manning's 15/30, 170YDs, 0TD, 1INT looks at least as good.
Actually 12 is a pretty objective rating of Chad. I have no problem with it at all. He could be 8 or 9 with a top end season or 14 or 15 if he repeats last year.
The Point is this was a bad game against the best defense in football by the best qb in football. At the end of the day Manning and other Superbowl Caliber Qb's find a way to get it done. When Chad plays against Superbowl Caliber Defenses he sells out every time. You don't think that having a Qb that can stretch the field and Keeping Ed Reed a few steps back is a big deal. Do you even think the Patriots would dare line up their Lb's close enough to the line of scrimmage to even be able to bat down a backwards Lateral against a good Qb like they did against Chad last year? We are not talking one game with Chad we are talking every game against good defenses with Chad. People on this board manipulate stats all the time to make this guy better than the 17 T/d 16 Int Qb he is. Half of our playbook is useless because this guy can't complete passes over 30 yards on a regular basis. The people who do not like Chad do not like him because we are sick of every game having to be perfect for us to win against good teams. He gets paid a salary to make plays and he does not do it.
Actually, I do and it was definitely a game altering play. No doubt about that. The Pats had a great defensive call against the play that the Jets ran. However, I'm sure that you'll find an example or two of strong-armed QB's being blitzed too. Doesn't mean that Pennington was totally inept for the rest of the game. It also doesn't mean that because Manning threw a 27 yard pass to his TE that means he was the difference maker. Check and you'll find that Pennington had a similar gain to Chris Baker. Most people understand that defenses will tend to cover closer to the line with Pennington than with Manning. We understand that Pennington has less margin for error. We understand that an accurate, strong-armed QB can open up defenses easier. Good banter. Got to go to work.
Do you have proof of that?? Don't you think if that was even remotely true that Mangini and Shotty would have been made finding a QB that can run the whole playbook more of a priority..
There aren't five Qb's in the league that the Pats would line up that close to the line of scrimmage against.
