Only 1/2 of the game is played on the road... he can be as perfect as he wants there but if he's going to have a 9+ ERA at home he sucks.... I thought having lefty specialists in the majors was getting bad enough, but road specialists? Get real. The best reliever on our roster is the guy that will get the 3 outs in a 3-3 tie in the bottom of the 9th in game 7 of the WS, whether it's home or away, and that's Wagner.
Sure it does. Except I was talking about hitters, not pitchers. Except that Shea favors pitchers. Except that you're talking about 12 IP on the road. Except that it's idiotic to talk about park factors when comparing players on the same team since they play under the same conditions. But hey, even though you're completely wrong at least you attempted to defend your statement that Schoenweis belongs on the AS team. Which is more then I can say about your declaration that Holliday, Lee and Rowand would be "much better" then the current starting OFers.
Who exactly are you arguing against? No one argued Schoenweis is good. He and Julio are wastes of valuable roster space. You need to learn how to read my posts. :wink: tell that to 3rd.
You want me to post all the stats of Holliday, Lee, and Rowand and explain why I think they should go? 1)They've played better this season. 2)If I wanted to, I could post stats that put them in a good light. You're completely wrong, and you proved that by choosing stats that support your argument instead of all the relevant stats. I don't give a damn what Beltran's road OPS is. He should not be starting in the All Star game based on his body of work and his play this season.
I could live with that. Especially given Griffey's specific career and how it's gone for him. I can see sentimental reasons. Bonds pisses me off because he's a cheating criminal, I hate him, and you can make the argument that his all-around game doesn't measure up to some of the other candidates. Push come to shove, he's probably more dangerous than say, Rowand, but I don't want him in the game. I was hoping fans would make a statement. I think they did, because MLB did something very fishy. Bonds was facing a 400,000+ vote gap and according to MLB, he made it up in a matter of hours. Either there was cheating going on, or MLB rigged the vote. I'm suspicious. Beltran just did not play well enough to deserve it. I love Beltran, but I simply don't think he merited it this year. The Mets get a lot of All Star support, of course.
You're right from a pure performance standpoint. But there's a good argument to be made that the All Star game should be more than just rewarding the best half-seasons. In 2003, Ken Harvey was the KC Royals rep based on a 13 homer first half. He didn't hit a single homerun the rest of the season and was out of baseball a year later. So, what would you rather see? A roster of Ken Harvey's, truly rewarding the best first half players, or a roster of future hall of famers, some of whom may be having a bad first half of the season? There isn't really a right answer.
Listen, Lee and Rowand's stats are barely better then Beltran's despite the fact they play in bandboxes and Beltran plays in a pitcher's park. I'm not sure how that's not relevant. Holliday's are alot better with some of the most extreme home/road splits you'll ever find, and he happens to play in Coors. As far as Bonds goes the only sensible argument against him is that he should be banned from baseball and thus ineligible for the AS game. But since that isn't the case there's really no way you can say he doesn't belong based on his on field performance.
and the coors effect is not what it used to be. if you want to look up how much coors has pushed up batters on average this year and discount holliday's stats by that, fine. but saying someone has a huge home/road split and using that as an excuse to ignore what he's accomplished is wrong. Unless you want to ignore what Schoenweis has done at Shea. Then we can ignore what Holliday has done at Coors. Matt Holliday: .348 average, 15 homers, 65 RBI, etc. while being the cornerstone for the surprising rockies. Carlos Lee: .298, 17 homers, 72 RBI Carlos Beltran: .270, 14 homers, 49 RBI Holliday and Lee should be in over Beltran, no questions asked. If I was choosing an NL lineup, they'd be my top 2 OFs, no questions asked. my NL starting lineup: Russell Martin, Prince Fielder, Chase Utley, Jose Reyes, Miguel Cabrera, Matt Holliday, Carlos Lee, Ken Griffey Jr, Jake Peavy
Forget the Coors effect. Holliday has been in the league for 3+ years now and these are his home OPS: 1.009, 1.002, 1.132, 1.142. That's Holliday in Coors. Here he is everywhere else: .654, .729, .818, .828. If you can't see that as significant I don't know what to tell you. We're talking about a ~.300 point OPS gulf between his home/road splits every single year. You can't discount that.
I didn't say it wasn't significant. I'm saying it's irrelevant because hardly anyone has those splits, even the Rockies players. The across-the-board effect isn't that big anymore. You can't say that just because Holliday's splits are big it shows that coors numbers are bogus. just look at tonight. same field, holliday facing better pitchers, holliday drives in 3 while Beltran posts yet another 0 for 4. 76 point difference in batting average. RBI? 65-49 Holliday, and Beltran plays in a better lineup.
Holliday's numbers are bogus. The sample size is big enough at this point to conclude that Holliday is an all pro at Coors and a league average or worse player everywhere else. You can't just look at the park factors overall because its not going to effect every player or type of player equally. Juan Pierre was still a shitbird with no power even in the Coors heyday. Your one game sample size and citing of RBI as a meaningful statistic are laughable, BTW.
lol, I didn't say tonight proved anything. I just said that the two guys happened to be on the same field for the first time this season, and look what happened. you're full of it. Your twisting of the facts is laughable, btw. No reasonable objective person would argue Beltran over Holliday this season. Not even close. Beltran is in a friggin' better lineup and produces less runs, gets less hits, etc.
What facts am I twisting? Fact: Holliday has a 1.070 Home OPS. Fact: Holliday has a .762 Road OPS. Fact: These numbers are compiled over the course of about 2000 PAs. Conclusion: Holliday sucks when he's not playing in Coors.
fact: ignoring what a player does at home and focusing on road statistics because they serve your purpose in an argument is disingenuous.
If you haven't gotten it by now I'm not going to keep banging my head against the wall. Congrats, you've surpassed junc as the most annoying person to have a discussion with.
if you say so. I don't really care what you think, because you're obviously wrong. Your arguments make no sense.
wow... anyone who cant understand that Coors field boosts your hitting statistics drastically shouldnt be allowed to have a conversation like the one thats taking place.
I don't think that he's saying Coors doesn't make a difference; I think his point is that Holliday is a great hitter who would do well in any park. Larry Walker and Todd Helton were hall of fame quality hitters, and definitely would have put up similar numbers playing anywhere. I don't know if Holliday will ever be that kind of player, but you can't dismiss everything he's done just because he plays in Colorado.
we got another winner who can't read my posts. Coors has always been a huge hitters park because it's big, the ball carries, and because certain pitches are difficult to throw there. But if you're actually paying attention, the Coors effect this year and last year is not the same as it used to be for the vast majority of players. There are a lot of players who do well in their own stadiums because of their comfort level there, or because their hitting style fits in. But that doesn't mean you should ignore what they've done. Like I said, if you want to measure the "Coors effect" and downgrade Holliday that much, that's fine. His stats will STILL be better than Beltran's. But saying "he hits well at coors and coors is traditionally a hitter's park, so let's just look at road statistics" is absolutely ridiculous. Once you start making arguments like that, you've already lost. So so far I have someone who thinks that I think Schoenweis is an All Star pitcher, and another who thinks I don't know about Coors Field. Anyone else? I know what the air is like over there. I make trips to Denver. In fact, I'm visiting Coors Field in August.
