I didn't want to drag the other thread too far off topic, so I started this one. My reasoning for saying Pedro is the best pitcher of all time is the following. He is the all time leader in ERA+. He's also top 3 in WHIP, K/9, W%, K/BB, and H/9. No other pitcher is in the top 3 in more than ONE of those. That is absolutely mind boggling. Six major pitching categories and only one pitcher is in the top three in at least 2 of them, and he's top three in ALL of them. Ridiculous. He's also 15th all time in strikeouts, just 2 shy of 3,000 for his career. Add to all that the fact that he'd done it in an era with smaller parks, a lower mound, bigger talent pool, steroids, juiced balls, and the highest offensive numbers in the sports history. He has dominated on the mound like no other, in an era where pitchers have had to take a back seat to hitters. If you can make a stronger case for anyone else, I'd like to hear it.
For Met fans, do you, collectively, appreciate Pedro like fans in Boston did? Are his starts more of an event than just another baseball game? I really hope with his shoulder strong again after the surgery he gets back to 1999 form, not that he's been bad since then, but that season was astounding. Not resigning Pedro was the dumbest move Epstein ever made, and was absolutely unforgivable. The Red Sox should never have allowed him to wear another uniform for the rest of his career.
I was about to start this thread. Good debate. As far as active pitchers go, I have to say Clemens and Maddux are better. you have to account for durability. Of course you can take Pedro in his prime and say he was the best. but you have to account for an entire career. As for all time, how can anyone deny Walter johnson. of course none of us saw him play. But his stats are mind boggling. A career 2.17 ERA, 1.061 WHIP, 3509 K, 531 CG, and 12 20+ win seasons...including a 36 win season.
His first year I made it a point to go to every Pedro start I could make it too. I saw him about 5 times. I love the guy.
There isnt any definitive best pitcher and these lists are always subjective but I do believe that Pedro should be in the discussion for best pitcher of all time. For me he would probably fall around 10 for best all time. Him, Randy Johnson and Clemens are the best of this generation. You could really argue that any of them as 1, 2 or 3 and you would be right. I think that you have to include Maddux and Smoltz into the conversation and if you are going to include relievers than add Hoffman and Mo as well.
You can't really compare someone from his era to someone from ours...Just too many things have changed. I'm going with Pedro, because his peak was the best ever, and it's not like he didn't have a long, storied career.
I've seen nearly every start Pedro has made at Shea, and I also traveled to Philly to see him last year (it was the diastrous 6 runs in 1 inning start). Shea definitely has an electric atmosphere when he starts. Can't wait for him to get back; I'm considering a weekend trip to Wrigley in early August if he's lined up to pitch there.
Pedro was better than Maddux. I would say Clemens was the best of our generation but the steroids clouds his accomplishments to me. That needs to be cleared up IMO.
Wow, finally a decent baseball conversation. Okay here is the lineup, list them as you think. Starting Pitchers ONLY. Pedro Clemens Randy Johnson Greg Maddux Tom Glavine John Smoltz Curt Schilling Mike Mussina David Wells Jamie Moyer Kenny Rogers These are the top 11 active wins leaders.
Pedro is only 34, so his career isn't over yet. If he comes back from his shoulder surgery strong, and has 5 more great years (near 20 wins and 250 K) he'll be closing in on 300 wins and 4500 Ks, and then it won't even be a discussion. Even not just his "prime" years, his worst ERA as a full time starter was 3.90, which was good for 9th in the league. Clemens had an ERA under 2.50 five times in 23 seasons, Pedro has 7 such seasons in just 15. Maddux has 6 in 22 years and pitched his entire career in the NL, which takes a lot away from my consideration of him compared to Pedro who had his best years in the AL. Neither of them are in the top 40 in WHIP, and both are behind Pedro in virtually every non length of career related stat. And as I said, if Pedro has 5 more great years, he'll catch them in those areas as well. Johnson pitched in a much different game, accounting for the complete games and wins/season. Johnson also lost 279 games to Pedro's 92. Pedro's 2.89 ERA is more impressive to me because of the era he did it in and he also has a lower WHIP, and just about 500 fewer K in over 3,200 fewer innings. Johnson was great, but I still think Pedro is better. I think part of the problem is the fact that Pedro is an active player. In 50 years when they have this conversation I have no doubt in my mind that the first name to come up will be Pedro Martinez.
Walter Johnson, not Randy. And that is a pretty big difference. A difference of .54 in ERA is no small thing.
Wins are a rubbish stat, so toss that out. Obviously Johnson's complete game figures are astounding nowadays, but it was a different landscape back then. Johnson's career ERA is amazing, yeah, but it was a pitchers' game when he played. That's why we have Adjusted ERA, to make up for the difference from one era of the game to another. http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_career.shtml As you can see, Pedro is first, and second isn't even close. Like devil mentioned, he's a top 3 guy in WHIP, K/BB, K/9 IP, etc., which is absolutely amazing. He's number 12 on the active IP leaderboard, but everyone ahead of him sans Mussina is already 40, so durability really isn't as big an issue as some people make of it.
Christy Matthewson. Walter Johnson and Bob Feller are also probably in the debate. How about Pudd Galvin and Kid Nichols? Both pitched in the 1880s. Can anyone here say for sure they aren't the best all time? That's why I like restricting this question to my lifetime. I'm gonna say Randy Johnson, in terms of pure dominance, is the single greatest pitcher I've ever seen. Pedro and Clemens are up there too. I put Glavine and Maddux next. I always thought of them as a pair, I don't think I could put one ahead of the other in terms of how good they were.
