O'Donnell was a SB QB, he may not have been marino but he was a good QB that you could win w/. Parcells also inherited Key, Chrebet, Murrell, Brady, jumbo, O'Dwyer, Anderson(who he did't play except when Byars was hurt), cascaddn, Mo, Marvin, Green, Glenn, Coleman, Douglas(who he gave away), Jeff Graham, Bobby hamilton, Mickens, David Williams. I appreciate what BP did here, I wish he never left. We were losers and he turned us around BUT we had ALOT of talent which is why he came here. He gave Groh all the credit in 2000 b/c he didn't want to take th heat or trading Key, he doesn't get the credit now. If you want to see what a BP darft looks like see 1997-1999. He left an aging team w/ a cap mess that hadn't been in postseasoin for 2 straight years. herm will NEVER catch BP overall, but he did a better job in NY than BP did in dallas.[/QUOTE] i just dont know what to say to you... i have a question do you think mangini is a better or worse coach for the jets?
i mean do you really consider the 96 jets talented? do you really feel like o'donnell was a good qb? do you really feel like bill parcells moves as a GM ment nothing? Bringing over Curtis Martin as a restricted free agent was the biggest move in franchise history. you act like that was a nothing thing, and that the jets were loaded up with talent. i mean we were the WORST team in the NFL two years in a row! and you think the roaster was talented. the team was filled with average players, i'll give you mo lewis and victer green on D, keyshawn (who we got cause we sucked and we were a 3-13 team with the first overall draft choice) chrebet, richie anderson(who only played at an all pro level under parcells AND only after keyshawn left.) i mean if you think herm didn't benifit from curtis martin then your just crazy. and i love how you say herm isn't a better coach BUT then u say he was when compared to bill parcells in dallas... i mean either he's on BP's level or he's not what is it? and let's be fair we're gonna blame a tony romo screw up on BP coaching?! let's compare Herm's next 4 years in KC to BP's years in dallas. Let's see who's the better coach. i just don't understand how u can defend the guy, he rode the team that was put together by Parcells, and if u wanna get all technicle parcells AND groh for 4 years, then the team get's injured and needs some rebuilding and he bounces. i think what we saw in 2005 is the real Herm, not the 2001-2004 version. i mean do you think he would have taken the 2006 Jets as far as Mangini did, cause i sure as hell don't. without Curtis and Herm coaching i bet we win tops 5 games.
Abe- always hurt Chad- needed to be devloped Ellis-needed to be developed Mawae- heading towards the downside of his career Coles-developing Becht- great offensive lineman. Thomas- good, young player farrior- bust as a Jet ferguson- getting fat and lazy after Bp left fabinbi- solid starter Young- below average starter Sowell- bench player We also had Glenn, mo,Marvin, vinny, Chrebet, Jumbo, Coleman, Anderson, Curtis, Green, Lyle, Mickens, and others. Sure we had some young players we had to develop(just like every team) but we had alot of older players which is why BP ledt us and didn't come back after 2000. if he thought he could win w/ that talent he would have eithe never left or been back after 2000. You also fail to note the cap hell we were in which forced us to lose some of those players. herm was left an aging team at key positions and some young players to develop. he took an 'excellent team" and dismantled it? What did that excellent team do the 2 years before Herm took over? and do you really think if we had that much talent that BP twice, BB and Groh would have walked out on us in the span of about a year? first off Herm was not the GM, and secondly how did he destroy the roster exactly? Did you notice the roster last year when we won 10 games again? Did you notice how many players were left by that regime? It's comical how people overrate the talent left to him and underrate what the they left for mangini in roder to try to take away from what Herm did. First off, please use the quote feature. it makes things easier. secondly, I would NOT tdae back. I think Mangini is a better coach and has better potential to be a Championship coahc BUT that does not mean we bash herm b/c of it. herm still did things no other coach here did and I appreciate that. YES the 1996 jets were very talented. look at the roster, we were very young and had an inept coach but we had talent. Signing Curtis was a great move. BP made 2 great moves- signing Curtis and signing mawae. Vinny & Cox he lucked into but that was the end of his great moves. Just go look atb his '97-'99 drafts for proof then take a look at his FA signings post Cox. Actually that was under GROH not Parcells and he was a Pber b/c he caught million dump offs b/c we got rid of our only big time WR and didn't replace him w/ anybody. of course Herm benefitted from Curtis as well as the other quality players left behind just as BP benefitted from all the quality players left behind from the regimes before him. No, overall he's not close to BP but herm in Ny compared to BP in Dallas goes to Herm. Playing in the tougher div and conf he made the playoffs 3 times winning 2 playoff games while BP made the playoffs twice losing in the WC rd each time. So parcells goes blameless for that but herm gets all the blame for a kicker missing 2 makeable kicks that could have sent us to the AFC Title Game? he only needs 1 more postseason in 3 years to catch him. I love mangini but the key to our team was good health and specifically Chad being healthy. When Chad is healthy and starts most of the season we go to the postseason.
Among the dumbest stuff you ever wrote Junc. Mawae was a Pro Bowls center 99 through 04 he was in his absolute prime and was the single best player on the Jets when Herm came in. Abe and Ellis did not need to be developed. Abe had 13 sacks in 2000 and Ellis had 8.5 in 2000 before Herm even showed up. Abe was a Pro Bowl DE in 01, 02 and 04. Ellis, who played great as a rookie in 2000 had his career retarded by Herm who moved him inside to DT and asked him to put on weight. Coles played significant time in 2000 and had started 3 games before Herm even showed up. Sorry Junc but you must have been watching a different team. Martin also made the pro bowl in both 01 and 04. Herm had a loaded team with youth and veterans all over the place a solid DL and OL and he left the place with no OL and very little left on the DL. Mangini took a shell of a team that Herm had and put up as good a record as Herm every did with a loaded team.
Junc, with all do respect, its comical how you could sit there and write that Mangini took over "Herms Talent". What team you were watching during Herms last season. It has to be different from the team I was watching. He destroyed this roster....along with Bradway. Now he will destroy the roster of the Chiefs. Thats what happens to insecure loudmouths who preach trusting his players but hands the ball off to Larry Johnson 700 times a year. He will probably switch to a cover 2 this year..followed by a blitzing aggressive team the following year. He will run Johnson 300 times by week 8...and with the Chiefs at 2-6, he will handout flyers to the media explaining how the Chiefs will go back to playing Chief football..and promises to pass at least 50 times the following week. Johnson will then carry the ball 44 times for 164 yards. He then will step to the podium and announce that the Chiefs havent given up...and some small school college administrator will have an orgasm wishing Herm will leave pro football..and go coach a school with 800 students..where he belongs. If nothing else, please just explain Herm Edwards football....please explain his football philosophy. Please explain to me, besides destroying number 1 backs, exactly what you are getting for the mouth...I mean the buck. Please tell me the on field decisions he made in his 20 years here...I think it was twenty. I just want to know..from you...what exactly is Herm Edwards football.
Mawae was beginning to decline and had probably his 2 worst years in '02 and '03. Abe had 13 sacks in 2000? Check your fatcs, abe played 6 games and had 4.5 sacks. he was also an OLB and then was moved to DE under Herm where he became a PB player. They moved Ellis out of desperation b/c Ferguson got hurt. It happens sometimes, why is held against him w/ the brief Ellis move but he doesn't get credit for turning Abe into a PB DE? Coles played alot in 2000 and had a whopping 13 recs on a heavy passing team as a #3 WR. martin had his worst full year in 2002 and wasn't much better in '03. if Herm had a "loaded team" why did BP twice, BP and Groh quit on them? mangini took a "shell of a team that Herm had"?:lol: Compare the players from '05 to '06. We had an amazing amount of injruies in 2005 and that is THE reason we stunk in '05 and good health was THE reason we won 10 games in '06. Mangini was left Kendall, Chad, Cotch, Coles, baker, Moore, ellis, Robertson, Vilma, hobson, Rhodes, Coleman, barton, nugent, Graham, Miller, etc... Mangini inherited ALOT of talent.
Show me where he destroyed the roster? if he destroyed the roster why was so much talent left for mangini to win 10 games w/? how will he destroy the Chiefs? Again, he wasn't he Gm here or in Kc so how is HE destroying any team? and forgive me for forgetti but how many Championships to KC win before he got there? what would be destoyed if they rebuilt the team? Herm Edwards football is never giving up, it's protecting the football on offense, it's creating turnovers on defense and it's WINNING. That's what Herman Edwards football is. Now please show me where he destroyed all this great Championship talent he had in NY?
You can't argue with nyjunc because he must be related to both Boobway and Herm (somehow, someway). He constantly insists that every move Boobway and Herm made, including losing Coles to bad management in 2003, was brilliant. He'd probably even defend/deflect blame for Herm clock management skills and Boobway's contract and draft fiascos. He probably even thinks the ridiculous trade down for Doud Jolley was a good move.
Mangini inherited some talent he also inherited a desimated OL and DL and no running back. The 05 roster was killed by injuries because Herm let the OL go and let Mawae and the other Veterans skate through the offseason, TC and pre season. They were physical not ready to open the season and that's one of the reasons they had all the injuries. The same thing happened to KC. Why did Parcells leave, he was burnt out and left. Groh was tired of dealing with malcontents like Mawae and decided to take a better job, just like Herm did. Maybe Herm left because he knew the team was done and better dealed us?
Herm and Bradway's single biggest mistakes were changing the overall schemes on offense and defense. We were indeed pretty well loaded heading into 02 w/ some quality players on both lines, a QB w/ a rocket for an arm and a quality developmental guy behind him, the best work horse in the NFL, 2 very good man corners and at the time, a dominant OLB in Lewis. Herm insisted upon changing the D into the cover 2, which didn't fit the skill set of any of our LB's or anyone in our secondary, and caused our D-line to fall into a 3 year pit switching from the 2 gap to the 1 gap(one can argue we are still recovering). The result was releasing some great players for stop gap players like Aaron Beasely, Sam Garnes, and Steve White who fit the scheme, but lacked elite starting talent. It was a disaster. On O, before hackett's WCO we had one of the best passing attacks in football. Chrebet and Coles were free to roam downfield, and Vinny was allowed to take advantage of his "gunslinger" skills. Frankly, their first draft pick, Santana Moss didnt exactly fit in the WCO either, and was a better fit in the Weiss-esque system. We had one of the best running attacks in the game, but we suffered from all our skill players adjustments to the new scheme. Especially Vinny who didn't have the quick release or pinpoint timing required for the WCO. Chrebet was a close second as he wasn't as often able to roam the flats and between the hashes on 3rd down due to the emphasis on 3 steps drops of the WCO. By the time they finally adjusted, we had a brand new QB, the other skill players had aged, and our 4-5 year window was a 2 year window, which unfortunately was halted by a new alternative way of thinking up in New England.
It's funny, but you can say the exact same thing about you in reverse. You're underrating what was left to Herm, and overrating what he left. But, of course, you think your opinion is the only one that matters and you're arguing just to argue. It's what you love to do. It's as pointless as trying to debate things with champ. He only sees his side of things, just like you only see your own opinion as valid.
You can't argue w/ me b/c I bring facts while you guys bring opinions. I don't insist every move Tb made was great but h id the righ thing w/ Coles by not overpaying for him like Washington did. The Jolley trade was one of the best in the history of the franchise. Domn't post thngs unless you actually know what you are talking about. uneducated fans think we gave up a 1st rd pick for Joley but that's not the case. we gave up our first rd pick to move down about 20 spots and received multiple picks in return and we drafted the 2 guys we wanted in the 1st 2 rds(Miller & Nugetn) PLUS got houston w/ one of the picks and traded one of the other picks to select KERRY RHODES. Explain to me how that is a bad pick? See why you can't argue w/ me? nstead of tying to argue maybe you should just pay attention? yes he let them skae through the offseason which is why mawae andthe Ol wre hurt every year, right? oh wait mawae never misseda game until 2005 and didn't miss one last yar. I agreethe OL needed to be addresssed last year but having a top 5 pick and a player ready to trade for a 1st rd pick sure helped replenish the OL. parcells was so burnt out that a year later he accepted the TB job then changed his mind. So he wasn't refreshed after sitting out the '00 season but he was the '01 season? There will be malcontents on every team(and in one sentence you praise mawae when he plays for Herm but for Groh he was just a malcontent?) andgroh waited 25 years to become a HC in the NFL. if he thought he had a SB roster he would never have left just like Bp wouldn't have left and at leats would have come back after '00 and BB never would have left. That's waht coaches do, mangini insisted on the 3-4 when we clearly had 4-3 players last year and it hurt some of our best defensive players. We signed Garnes, beasley, etc... b/c of cap problems not just b/c of the scheme. if we didn't have cap problems aaron Glenn would have been a Jet for a few more years. Remember we needed Hosuton to take Glenn and Coleman in the expansion drat to avoid cap helland they made whatever moves they could after that which led to a division title. You obviously do not remember 2000. Vinnny had high passing #s but that's b/c we threw alot. We threw the ball 637 times instead of riding Curtis Martin and the result was Vinny threw 25 INts and killed our playoff hopes. Chrebet was clearly not a #1 WR but he was forced to be in 2000 w/ Dedric wrd as the 2. Coles was a rookie and barely did anything for us. Coles took a leap the next year under Herm and we changed to that offense for the future for Chad and in '01 we did the right thing by riding Curtis to the playoffs instead of Vinny's arm as Vinny passed only only 441 timnes instead of 590 and did it in 16 games insted of 15 as he did in 2000. In 2001 curtis was 2nd in the league in rushing, in 2004 he led the NFL in rushing- how did our ground game suffer? The only year Curtis really struggled was 202 and that was b/c he was playing hurt most of the year. I NEVER said Herm was not left w/ talent. It's people like YOU who only see one side so save that nonsense for yourself and the other Hrem haters. I ahve admitted plenty of faults for Herm, I have said I don't want him as our HC but you guys keep insisting everything he did was wrong and that the guy didn't do a thing to help us and that is 100% wrong!
So your premise is that Parcells and Groh left because they didn't think the team could win? Let's say that's true, Herm took the job from Groh and left after 5 years to take a job with KC. Based on your logic that coaches walk because teams can't win and pursue jobs where they can, obviously Herm took the Jets job because he thought the team was ready to win, he left after 5 years to go to KC because he knew he shit the bed in NY and thought KC was ready to go to the next step. After Herm the Jets go from 4 to 10 wins, after Vermiel the Chiefs go from 10 to 9 wins. The Jets are widely considered on the mend and the Chiefs are widely considered on the decline 1 year removed from Herm leaving here and going there. A complete reversel of fortune. What this says based on Junc logic is Herm is not only a bad coach, he is stupid in his choices for advancement.
Herm took the job b/c he was a young coach looking for his first opportunity. parcells and groh left b/c they didn't think thye had enough talent to win a SB. I love the "10 to 9 wins" in KC, that 10th win was a meaningless game against a cincy team resting for the playoffs. The afcts are they went from non-playoff team to playoff team and that is more important than 10 to 9 wins just as our 2002 9 win tam was MUCH better than our 2001 10 win team. I do believe Herm saw cap problems, saw age in certain positions, felt the media and fan heat and decided to move on. He knew he wasn't walking into a championship team but knew he bought himself a few more years to rebuild which he wouldn't have had in NY. What does that have to do w/ BP, BB and Groh walking out on us? Just to set things straight, why do you think that BP, BB twice and groh all walked out on us?
Parcells was toast at the time and didn't want to deal with a new regime. Groh is an old school guy and couldn't stand the pro athlete as the boss. BB left for money and control and to get out of Parcells shadow.
:lol: BB had one chane left to prove he could bea successful HC, do you think if he thought he had Championship talent he would have left? BP was dying for 1 more championship, do you think if he thought he had championship talent he would have stepped down? AND if we was burned out then why didn't he come back after the year off? yet a year later he was ready to take over TB. Al groh waited 25 years for his first opportunity, he had coached in the NFl for a LONG time and w/ new generation players. why did all of a sudden he decide to leave? do you think he was surprised at how the players acted when he had been coaching in the NFL for so long? We had a mid of the pack roster when Herm took over, he elevated the franchise that had missed 2 straight postseasons and did so after the job was rejected FIVE times! BP twice, BB, groh AND dom Capers took his name out of the running after intervieweing for the job. Why would 4 veteran HC's all desperate for success not want a job w/ such a talented roster?
I might agree with you, if there weren't such crazy phenomena as Norville Turner, Wade Phillips, Dick Jauron, and so forth.
Those other guys are considered easy to work w/, BB was a jerk. I doubt he would have gotten another chance and if so it would have been aother 4-5 years down the road and he wasn't getting younger. Remember, prior to Brady stepping in during the '01 season there were rumblings BB was not going to last the season.
Abe- always hurt, I'll give you that one. Chad- needed to be devloped, sink or swim. hes had plenty of time Ellis-needed to be developed, drafted to play immediately. whats the excuse? Mawae- was top 3 Center in the league until Herm let go of legendary strength and conditioning coach and the team suffered numerous injuries including Mawae's tricep which was the beginning of his decline. Coles-victim of a conservative offense, before the nagging toe injury he was a complete burner. still quick but not like that. Becht- great offensive lineman. you mean that sarcastically but he was exactly that. and another reason our run blocking was unstoppable. Thomas- good, young player farrior- mediocre than had a great season indicative of why we drafted him, refused to sign him to a long term deal ferguson- was the heart of our playoff team D's, helped Vilma fly around free and made D-Rob look like Sapp fabinbi- good starter Young- we missed him after he left Sowell- the guy picked up where richie anderson left off. was a great safety valve for chad and a reason martin continued to be great later on in his career with great run blocking.
