^^Tom Coughlin was the Giants coach last year. They made the playoffs. They were 8-8, they basically blew, the team mutineed on him, he killed a rookie to the press, etc. But they won the games they had to win or whatever in order to win the tie breakers and make the playoffs. Is he a good coach? I get your point on Herm. His teams got to the playoffs when the QB wasn't hurt. I don't think they had any chance in hell of game-planning their way into a championship and stealing one from a superior team, but at least they got there and you are correct, he deserves credit. But, damn, 10 men on the field is pretty weak, you have to admit.
I think Coughlin is a diferent version of Herm, basically the same results. he'll get you to the playoffs but you won't get to a SB and we never competed in the weak NFc and never won just8 games to get into the playoffs. They almost stole one from a superior Pitt team and did so w/ a QB who had a torn rotator cuff on his throwing shoulder.
^^ But players love Herm. Coughlin not so much. I know we almost stole one from Pittsburgh. Our offense did nothing, and with perhaps a slightly more creative and ballsy coach, we'd have beat them. And then get embarrassed by the Pats next week, so whatever. Still no excuse for 10 men on the field, I don't know why that's never addressed.
The Kicker has to make one of those 2 kicks and who knows if we get embarrassed the next week? maybe we do but strange things happen. I wish we had the chance. Ther isn't any excuse for 10 or 12 men on the field.
I don't, I am happy w/ mangini and I wouldn't trade back. That doesn't mean i don't apprecitae what we did under herm.
You keep comparing Herm's results to "Our History" - You've got to THINK BIGGER... This is all simple Junc WE NEEDED BETTER COACHING!!!!!! That's all.... Why the hell do you play games looking into Jets history. or trying to judge Herm on different levels based on whatever the hell you want to at the time. "Good enough for a certain level" IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.... WE NEEDED BETTER COACHING.. That's all - Stop with your games of "You guys do this" or "Youy guys do that" or "You guys rate Herm here when he was only half as bad as that and actually good compared to Jets history and Blah blah blah blah blah blah freaking BLAH"""""""" WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT THE FREAKING HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE NEEDED BETTER COACHING!!!!!!!!!!!! Done!!! That's it STOP YOUR BS WE NEEDED BETTER COACHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE END. "But.... Wahhhh, you guys.... The Jets sucked for 800 years. Herm was actually good - look at his record he couldn't have been half as bad when his record was half as good #!@*&%#*)(@!)&# B#"
GAME SET MATCH...... It baffles me that this guy keeps getting off the matt trying to prove some point that "Herm will never win BUT, he was still good and people criticized him too much" --- Boxers DIE doing this - Someone throw in the towel for him. Either we have a guy who can win a Championshipor we dont'... Having a coach that just looks decent compared to Jets history is foolish.
It was a joke and I was agreeing with you about the majority, sorry I wasn't clear enough for you. A clear argument is an opinion and having a clear and even well thought out and backed up argument using statistics still doesn't change the way you and others may interpert the data. Did it ever occur to you that while your data may support your argument, you're using the data incorrectly? What this really comes down to is you don't really get what's going on in the game you merely see the stat sheet and use it for your clear argument. My argument with you is not that your data is wrong, it's just you have no idea what the data means because you really don't get what's going on.
We had maybe the best staff in the history of the game from 1997-1999 and we made the playoffs ONCE and won ONE playoff game! it's not easy to win Championships and getting to postseason is alot better than being 4-12 ever year. It baffles me that people can't appreciate what we did under Herm. You can't get to a Sb w/o first getting to the playoffs and we had 8 ttoal p[re-herm and in just 5 years he had almost half that total. I appreciated being a contender, now we need to take it to the next level. I would be happy if herm was still here, I think he's a good coach but I prefer Mangini. I'd really prefer to have our '97-'99 staffs, does that mean i should want to get rid of mangini? Football is a bottom line businees, you either win or you don't. It doesn't sayanything in the rule book that as a coach you have to outsmart, outhink and outscheme your opponent- all that matters are the W's and L's. I'd rather have a perceived poor coach who wins than a perceievd genius coahc who doesn't. THAT is what's going on and you guys don't get it. I cannot understand how long time Jet fans who have watched bumbling coach after bumbling coach come throuhg here and lose cannot appreaicte what we did under ESPECIALLY when you take into consideration that BP twice, BB and groh all quit on us in 1 year span and that we had a dynasty team in our division. It's baffling to me.
ok wow seriously the fact this is being discussed still is hilarious to me. i side with both spectrums of the argument. first off, herm's obvious flaws were, not cultivating younger talent, horrible clock managment, and throwing coordinators under the bus. positives, like a dick vermeil team he got the best out of his starters through emotion alone. he did get us to the playoffs, now whether or not that was based on the fact that we did have legit talent or not. is bedises the point. it really couldve been worse. but in conclusion this franchise needed a new attitude, a new direction, and a actual building plan. but the fact people even care about him anymore is way beyond me. whether u liked him or not, hes gone. this just really shows how boring the offseason is. were still having the same conversations we had when mangini was an unknown. lets be thankful he was replaced with a good coach. otherwise we could be talking about how much we miss him. now this has only been used to describe players, but herm did have intangibles. he was a tony dungy "good guy" type who got the most out of the players he actually played. generally his teams were never fully OUT of a game until the end. that being said, he wasnt that good of an x's and o's coach. teams knew what they were getting each week. he ran martin ragged, he kept penny in knowing he was hurt (debate it all u want, a qb would never remove himself from a game, especially someone like chad). anyways put this shit to rest, seriously.
good post BUT there are a few points I need to discuss. he did(his staff) develop alot of young talent(Mckenzie, Moss, Chad, Jordan, Ellis, moore, jones, Coles, Robertson, Coleman, rhodes, Hobson, Vilma,...) and he didn't run martin ragged. he actually ran Curtis less per year on average than parcells did.
junc, im not saying they were major flaws, he just did what he thought would work. and it mustve cuz we did make the playoffs. all im saying is IMO (and many others) Jordan shouldve seen alot more time. and althought martin was playing as fresh as a rookie common sense says you dont run a over 30 RB like that when you have a totally capable backup. and most of the young players you named were drafted in the 1st few rounds. so them playing should be expected. but on the cotchery subject, I'm sorry no excuse there. which is why even herm said it himself. First off, when Cotchery was drafted. I literally expect him to start that year. Why? cuz it was obvious he was ready. It was obvious McCareins is the epitome of a hot/cold player. with more cold than hot to offer. either way I'm done posting in this thread, glad enough to see you gave me credit on my post, i guess this is just one facet of the argument we'll agree to disagree on.
That's your problem right there...you keep comparing him against other Jets' coaches. We have had some very poor coaches over the years. The bottom line is this: Did you really feel confident going into each game with him as our coach that we were going to win? I can't even count the amount of times I felt going into a game that we were going to be outcoached, and sure enough, we were. It was either the other coach outcoaching us, or Herm outcoaching himself. Under Mangini, the only coach I worry about outcoaching him is Bellichick. That's why I'm glad he's here.
I agree Jordan should have seen more time BUT it's not like lamont has lit up since leaving and Curtis did play well for us. Cotchery played alot in his 2nd year. Who wee the young players that didn't play that you wanted to see play more under Herm? Would a fair comparison be to compare herm to vince lombardi? of course i compare him to frmer jet coaches and current NFL coaches. Only 3 or 4 HCs have more playof appearances since 2001- that's pretty damn good. When we were healthy I felt confident going into every game w/ herm as our HC and when we were healthy we were always good. I also feel confident w/ Mangini, obviously he's a better X's and O's coach, but just b/c we feel great doesn't mean we'll always win. We did lose to Cle, get thrashed by jax and Buf and lost games to Indy and chi in large part tanks to poor decisions by Mangini.
Bottom line the combined record of the Jets teams the previous 5 years before Herm was 39 & 41 that includes a 1 & 15 seasons under Kotite 3 years under Parcells and 1 year under Groh. Herm was left a 9 & 7 team with 4 quality 1st round draft choices including a quality starting QB and a franchise drafted QB with pro experience, a HOF RB, quality on both lines and the secondary and the best Herm could do in 5 years was 39 & 41 and never got the team back to the AFC Championship game. He also left the team with bad lines on both sides of the ball no RB, an abused and injured QB with no back up, basically he took a very good team and ran it into the ground. What's baffling to me is you look at making the playoffs something over 30% of the teams do every year as some kind of great achievement. With the team Herm inherited making the playoffs was a given. Leaving the team after 5 years with a losing regular season record a losing playoff record and a team that was close to dysfunctional is why many of us see him as a lower tier coach. My argument may be irrational but I think it’s clear.
Just to set things straight, regular season performance is moe important then getting into the postseason? You'd rather have the Jets win 8 or 9 games and choke away a playoff berth late than make the playoffs? I'd prefer more playoff sasons w/ the occassional bad year due to injuries than finishing 8-8,9-7 and losing late to miss the playoffs. What did herm inherit? He inherited an aging team that had some young players to develop. h imnherited a eam that had MISSED the playoffs 2 straight years, had lost 6 of 9 to blow the '00 season, had their 3rd HC in 3 seasons and was clearly on the decline and he turned us back in the right direction. I just want to show you one more thing. vermiel 2001-2005 w/ KC: 44-36 Herm 2001-2005 w/ NYJ: 39-41 obviously you'd much rather have vermeil's record than herm's since he had a better reg season record but w/ Vermeil Kc had ONE playoff appearance in 5 years and ZERO playoff wins while in the same time frame the Jets made it 3 times and won 2 playoff games. and oh by the way w/ a lesser talented team Herm took over KC and got thm to the playoffs in his 1st year.
The best thing about Herm is "Like a Steam Locamotive going down the track He's Gone.. Gone and never coming back... He's Gone". Its a Championship or bust. I have been a season tic holder for 27 years and not one AFC championship game at home and obviously not one super bowl. These guys get 5 years Going to the playoffs was a goal after the Kotite years. No more. Its Super Bowl or bust
